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Old 10-21-2004, 02:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I love the First Amendment.

Let's repeat together:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......"
Several framers of the actual document commented on it in various letters, articles, books, etc. Thomas Jefferson, for example, is quite blunt in saying the very phrase you quote is "building a wall of separation between church and State." A sample taken from this site:


Quote:
Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:


"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say "freedom of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:


"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822:


"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:00 PM   #17
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
This is just a weak ass excuse. But people all over have been trying to ban halloween ever since I can remember except usually it's conservative Christians.
I'm going to play conspiracy theorist.... Maybe it IS a conservative christian plot to ban halloween. It's perfect...no one thinks of that angle!
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


I'm going to play conspiracy theorist.... Maybe it IS a conservative christian plot to ban halloween. It's perfect...no one thinks of that angle!
They're still blaming the witches...

let's see if they float!
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
Several framers of the actual document commented on it in various letters, articles, books, etc. Thomas Jefferson, for example, is quite blunt in saying the very phrase you quote is "building a wall of separation between church and State." A sample taken from this site:
Take the body of Jefferson's works and you may get a different conclusion. We've had other threads review this point in greater detail.

I guess it just doesn't mean what is says....
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:12 PM   #20
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Originally posted by deep
Have you ever had the government come into your church and tell them what or how to administer to your fellow congregates?
In the US, the government is far more likely to tell a church how it can be run than a church tell the government how it can be run.
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


In the US, the government is far more likely to tell a church how it can be run than a church tell the government how it can be run.
Good.
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:17 PM   #22
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I guess you only like part of the First Amendment....
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:19 PM   #23
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LOL!!!

Seems to me we have lots of churches that are, very successfully, telling the government how it should be run.
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:23 PM   #24
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Is that true, or just perception fueled by partisianship?
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is that true, or just perception fueled by partisianship?
It's true.

I went to Catholic schools as well, and we had a mandatory "world religions" course taught, mandated by all the Catholic school boards. I enjoyed it a lot.
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:28 PM   #26
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Sorry, I was refering to Pax's statement that churches tell the goernment how it should be run.
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:07 PM   #27
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I don't think it's too far off, really. I can tick off a long list of pushes for legislation that are meant to cater only to very specific segments of the religious public. I don't even think I need to tick off a list.

You can call this partisan bullshit if you want, but I don't think it can be argued that very specific religious groups have pushed, and are pushing, for legislation or court decisions tailored to narrow interest groups based on religion. Hell, most of them, in fact, are very proud of it and wouldn't deny it.
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
LOL!!!

Seems to me we have lots of churches that are, very successfully, telling the government how it should be run.
Which is exactly what I meant by "Good." (Couldn't elaborate then since I realised it was getting dark out and I still had beasts to feed!)

So what I should have typed was: Good. Since so many churches (or members thereof) seem to be so dead set about incorporating their agenda in the government, it's just fair that the government should impose rules on churches.
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:33 PM   #29
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Originally posted by indra
Since so many churches (or members thereof) seem to be so dead set about incorporating their agenda in the government,
So constituents who also happen to be members of churches should not have their views respected, unlike others??

Quote:
Originally posted by indra
it's just fair that the government should impose rules on churches.
Nice to see such a selective reading of the First Amendment.
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:56 PM   #30
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Hey, I figure if the churchies can do it, why can't I?


Anyone else see the gorgeous irony in my choice of favorite bands (well, their name anyway)?
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