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Old 05-02-2005, 09:42 AM   #106
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Originally posted by Irvine511
dude. go back and read. i've offered an argument. you've offered blanket condemnations of caricatures of people who exist only at your convenient definition -- i.e., "liberals."

your post had no substance, just stereotypes.
Your argument was that pro-lifers want to punish women for having sex. It's about protecting innocent life, as 80s clarified for you. Blanketed? If I've done anything on here, it's uncovering the buzzword BS with what it really is. You don't go to a choice clinic to get a choice done. You go to an abortion clinic to stop a beating heart.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:43 AM   #107
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Originally posted by deep
Are you bitching about the Administration now?

I thought you were a supporter?
War victims should be televised. Executions should be televised. Abortions should be televised. We have a right to know what our government is doing in regard to human life. I support that idea more than almost anything Bush supports.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:45 AM   #108
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Originally posted by Irvine511




well, i object to the "pro-life" label, since i like life as well.

however, if you go back and read, and i do this ONLY for you, i have consistently written "anti-choice/pro-life."
Is anti-abortion too hard for you to say?

"Anti-choice" is pure flamebait that the ACLU uses in order to promote their "pro-choice" agenda. Apparently some have a hard time calling it what it really is.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:47 AM   #109
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Your argument was that pro-lifers want to punish women for having sex. It's about protecting innocent life, as 80s clarified for you. Blanketed? If I've done anything on here, it's uncovering the buzzword BS with what it really is. You don't go to a choice clinic to get a choice done. You go to an abortion clinic to stop a beating heart.

i argued that one component of the anti-choice argument seems to be rooted in archaic notions of punishment for women who have sex (and notice men suffer no consequences). you might not agree, but your'e going to have to offer up more than hysterics. and if the above are the stark, black and white, simplistic terms you view the argument in, and you're unwilling to contenance what the other side has to say, then i suppose it's not really worth having a discussion. every single person who has posted on this thread has acknoweldged complexity in the abortion debate; you offered up a "liberals say this and do that" which had little to do with anything except divert attention from the actual issue itself. no woman walks into an abortion clinic and says, "yep, pregnant again doc; clean me out." it sounds like you wish that would happen, as it would give more creedence to your Coulterish comparisons of liberals as murderers (though, let me tell you, the girls i knew who had abortions in high school were wealthy, spoiled little things who drove SUVs and their daddies voted republican).
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:49 AM   #110
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Is anti-abortion too hard for you to say?


no. "anti-abortion" is too simplistic for me to give it any credibility.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:58 AM   #111
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i argued that one component of the anti-choice argument seems to be rooted in archaic notions of punishment for women who have sex (and notice men suffer no consequences). you might not agree, but your'e going to have to offer up more than hysterics. and if the above are the stark, black and white, simplistic terms you view the argument in, and you're unwilling to contenance what the other side has to say, then i suppose it's not really worth having a discussion. every single person who has posted on this thread has acknoweldged complexity in the abortion debate; you offered up a "liberals say this and do that" which had little to do with anything except divert attention from the actual issue itself. no woman walks into an abortion clinic and says, "yep, pregnant again doc; clean me out." it sounds like you wish that would happen, as it would give more creedence to your Coulterish comparisons of liberals as murderers (though, let me tell you, the girls i knew who had abortions in high school were wealthy, spoiled little things who drove SUVs and their daddies voted republican).
As I've said many times, if the woman has maternal problems, that is an exception, as is incest or rape because she is not responsible for it. All women should have rights, but nobody - man or woman should have the right to end an innocent life unless it's their own. There aren't many liberals who actually believe that, which is a shame if you ask me. Also, I support the adoption of any loving parent - you included. As far as what the other side has to offer - it's "don't impose your morality on others..." Yeah, let's go back in time and tell that to Abraham Lincoln. After all, slavery was a "man's right" and you're anti-choice if you don't support it. When one life is at stake in order to appease another, I don't support it. I don't care if it's the death penalty (innocent people are executed, therefore I no longer support it) or abortion, innocent life should be protected. Of course, it's an accomplishment for the pro-choice crowd to acknowledge that there are in fact two involved here.
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:00 AM   #112
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Originally posted by Irvine511
no. "anti-abortion" is too simplistic for me to give it any credibility.
And anti-choice isn't?

Look at it this way. I believe a woman has a choice whether or not to risk pregnancy. Therefore, labeling me "anti-choice" is rubbish.
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:27 AM   #113
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And anti-choice isn't?

Look at it this way. I believe a woman has a choice whether or not to risk pregnancy. Therefore, labeling me "anti-choice" is rubbish.


nope. to me, the debate centers around whether or not a woman has the choice to do with her body what she wants. that's why i believe it's about choice. i'm not injecting my own opinion here, i've actually kept that to myself, but it is possible for someone to be anti-abortion but pro-choice. as in, you'd do everything possible to convince a woman not to have an abortion, you'd never have one yourself, but you don't think that it should be made illegal. this is the grey area -- you might think that a fetus is life, but it is not yet human life, and will the destruction of a fetus is a tragedy, it is not tantamount to the murder of a child, and there are greater tragedies avoided by keeping abortion legal. the issue is centered on the legality of the practice, not on whether or not a fetus is entitled to the same rights as a human being.

i'm also being very careful to keep this intellectual and hypothetical. this topic gets waaaaaaaay too emotional, and i'd rather have a discussion than the screaming matches that some in FYM are prone to on this subject.
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:31 AM   #114
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i'm also being very careful to keep this intellectual and hypothetical. this topic gets waaaaaaaay too emotional, and i'd rather have a discussion than the screaming matches that some in FYM are prone to on this subject.
If I were you and wanted to avoid getting too emotional, I might want to be careful with my choice of words. That's what I'm trying to convey.
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:38 AM   #115
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If I were you and wanted to avoid getting too emotional, I might want to be careful with my choice of words. That's what I'm trying to convey.


i have been careful. evidently, i was too careful. from now on, i am going to use the terms of the debate as i understand them and will ignore hysterical reactions.

so much for trying to be sensitive and accomodating ...
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:52 AM   #116
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once again, all the blame is placed at the doorstep of the woman. it's her fault for not buying a condom, her fault that her partner didn't/wouldn't wear one, etc. etc. it takes two to tango, and if no condom was used, remember that there was an equally complicit man who was also not using a condom.

the simple fact of the matter is that you can't stop people from having sex. it would be impossible to legislate and enforce, not to mention an unconstitutional encroachment on individual rights. this is how it is, and it's not going to change.
I never placed all the blame on the woman. You're right, it does take two to tango, and if the man didn't bring a condom either than he's just as irresponsible. But in the end, it's the WOMAN who would get the abortion, it's the WOMAN who has to go through the pain of an unwanted pregnancy, and it's the WOMAN who would have to give the baby up for adoption if she chose not to abort it and did not want to keep it. The man gets away guilt-free!

I also don't like being lumped in with the religious right simply because I'm anti-abortion. People can fuck as much as they want, I'm not against sex. Fuck your brains out, I say! But be responsible. If you're a woman, bring a condom. If you're a man, bring a condom. As long as someone has it. If you can be on two forms of birth control (pill + condom), do it, so your chances are even further decreased. But even with birth control there are risks, and there are chances, and a person has to be able to deal with the repurcussions of those choices.


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Old 05-02-2005, 11:13 AM   #117
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Pro youth in asia. What's wrong with Chinese kids? I'm all for 'em!
It took me a second to catch on...
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:06 PM   #118
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Though I am opposed to abortion, I don't think aborted fetus pictures should be displayed because they go even further to devalue a life that has been destroyed. Any murder victim deserves dignity and respect. That baby was a living thing.
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:38 PM   #119
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If the skin and muscle surrounding a woman's uterus became transluscent upon impregnation


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A Womb with a View?
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Old 05-03-2005, 03:00 AM   #120
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1. Abortion: FOR ( more or less)

2. Gay marriage: FOR

3. Gays adopting: FOR - depends on parents actually - holds for heterosexual couples as well.

4. Death penalty: AGAINST except 1 in a million case
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