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Old 05-02-2005, 12:24 AM   #91
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Are we going to remove images from the Iraq war as well?
Are you bitching about the Administration now?

I thought you were a supporter?
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:26 AM   #92
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Are we going to remove images from the Iraq war as well?
Images of the grotesque, if people want to see dead Iraqi children killed by US bombs then they can look at anti-war sites, if they want to see the damage wrought by Saddam then they can look at massgraves.info or any number of other sites.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:16 AM   #93
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If the skin and muscle surrounding a woman's uterus became transluscent upon impregnation, and she could see the life growing inside of her day by day, the abortion rate would most definitely be down.

What's funny is how some people who are pro-choice react so harshly against those would see pictures and videos of abortions made public on a wide-scale. They call such desires 'barbaric' and say it confuses the debate. I did a research project on abortion a few years ago and I saw many, many pictures and it scars a person for life. I didn't know where I stood on the abortion debate then but I do now.

I say, if you're going to take a stance on something as serious as abortion, you should know full and well what you're supporting. If you can't bear to look at an abortion video and think it's too 'barbaric,' perhaps you should re-think your position on the issue.

Also - a culture of abortion is a culture of irresonsibility. I agree with others' sentiments - if you're mature enough to have sex, you should consider yourself mature enough to be a parent. Having sex is not like giving a handshake. Personal responsibility should not be tossed out the window in favor of casual abortions, which account for over 90 percent of all abortions performed in the United States every year. A small fraction of abortions are actually the result of rape or incest, and you'd be surprised at the percentage of yearly abortions that are NOT a woman's first. Some women consider abortion to be a form of birth control. Why should a woman who can't choose to buy a condom be given the choice whether or not to end a human life? Why is it always the the least responsible people making the most important choices?

Pro Gay Marriage (or Civil Unions, to appease the religious folk).

Pro Gay Adoption - it's interesting that abortion and gay marriage are mentioned in the same breath. Earlier someone said that giving an unwanted child up for adoption is 'destroying' a life. But think about all of the heterosexual and homosexual couples out there who would love to adopt a child of their own and raise it in a loving environment. I've known many people with adoptive parents and they're great human beings. There lives are not 'destroyed.' That's an insulting phrase, and an insult to the wonderful people who choose to adopt.

Pro Gun Control, but I believe a person should be able to purchase a hunting rifle for sport. Assault weapons are fucking ridiculous, and it pisses me off that they're legal.

Pro youth in asia. What's wrong with Chinese kids? I'm all for 'em!


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Old 05-02-2005, 04:58 AM   #94
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Originally posted by Miggy D
Why should a woman who can't choose to buy a condom be given the choice whether or not to end a human life? Why is it always the the least responsible people making the most important choices?
once again, all the blame is placed at the doorstep of the woman. it's her fault for not buying a condom, her fault that her partner didn't/wouldn't wear one, etc. etc. it takes two to tango, and if no condom was used, remember that there was an equally complicit man who was also not using a condom.

that being said, as irvine pointed out above, even the most vigilant and responsible couple can find themselves pregnant--birth control isn't 100% and accidents do happen. unwanted pregnancies are not merely the fault of the reckless and irresponsible.

the simple fact of the matter is that you can't stop people from having sex. it would be impossible to legislate and enforce, not to mention an unconstitutional encroachment on individual rights. this is how it is, and it's not going to change.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:00 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Are we going to remove images from the Iraq war as well?

If you think its necessary for people to see pictures like the one you posted last night, you could have posted a link with a disclaimer and at least given us a choice.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:02 AM   #96
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
That's your argument? Oh, man!


dude. go back and read. i've offered an argument. you've offered blanket condemnations of caricatures of people who exist only at your convenient definition -- i.e., "liberals."

your post had no substance, just stereotypes.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:03 AM   #97
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I had tried soooo hard to stay out of this, because it upsets me so much. I was hoping this thread would be just a state your case and go thing, and there would be no deep discussions. But now that there are, I feel there are things I need to say. First, Irvine, you know that stupid 'anti-choice' shit pushes my anger button every time That's such bullshit, if you're against guns you're anti-choice, if you oppose smoking that's anti-choice, it's only one of many terms used to try to make a bad thing seem noble and good.

That is what upsets me so much about this, more than anything. For me, it's not a religious or political thing at all, it's just a common sense thing, and the philosophy behind the pro abortion position is one that would be laughable and hilarious if it weren't so sickening and disturbing. It never ceases to amaze me how many ways people will twist, justify and rationalize what it really is, sugar coating it with comfy, warm and fuzzy terminology like 'choice' and 'rights' to disguise what it really is- the brutal death of an unborn human being. This is why people get so upset by the pictures of aborted fetuses, because they take down that wall of sugar and everything's-okay-you-didn't-do-anything-wrong that the justifications and comfy terms put up and show what it really is, what really happens, and maybe some people aren't so comfortable with that. Well, if you can't deal with it, if you don't want to see it, maybe you aren't quite so sure in your heart and conscience as you'd like to feel you are. This is the biggest problem I have with this argument, is that people hide behind their nicey little terms trying to rationalize it away and refuse to admit what it really is. If you want to support it, if you want to do it, whatever, but stop sugar coating it and call it what it really is- ABORTION! Can you say the word? Say it now, you are PRO ABORTION! And what is abortion? What is this 'choice?' It's the death by mulitation of a baby with growing tissue and a beating heart. The baby is cut up and the pieces that once made its body are sucked out and flushed away like last month's leftovers. Just because you don't want to hear that doesn't mean it's not the truth. Deal with it and own up to it.

The other thing that gets me is the 'I am personally opposed to abortion but don't want to deny others the choice'- that's the same thing as saying, I'm not gonna kill my spouse no matter how much of a problem he/she causes me, but if OJ or Scott Peterson want to do it, that's up to them, who am I to judge?' Would you say that? Of course not. So how can you say it about an innocent baby? To me, accepting it as 'okay' and allowing it to continue, even by voting for candidates with pro abortion stands, puts the blood on your hands too, and I can't do that. I want to be able to know in my conscience that I did nothing to cause the death of a baby, ANYONE's baby, for any reason.

Thank you 80s for taking a stand on this, thank you macphistowannabe for trying, thanks everyone else who had the guts to point out the evil and hypocrisy of the abortion issue, though doing so is not a popular thing here. I realize saying this is something that a lot of people are going to hate me for, but I feel so strongly in my heart and soul that I am on the right side I have to go with that.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:18 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
First, Irvine, you know that stupid 'anti-choice' shit pushes my anger button every time That's such bullshit, if you're against guns you're anti-choice, if you oppose smoking that's anti-choice, it's only one of many terms used to try to make a bad thing seem noble and good.


well, i object to the "pro-life" label, since i like life as well.

however, if you go back and read, and i do this ONLY for you, i have consistently written "anti-choice/pro-life."
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:23 AM   #99
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well, i object to the "pro-life" label, since i like life as well.
I am not pro-life, since I support the death penalty and voluntary assisted suicide. I do not fit your stereotype of an anti-abortion activist- I'm not 'pro-life, I'm a woman, and I don't go to church. I can just see this for what it really is, and it upsets me.

Quote:
however, if you go back and read, and i do this ONLY for you, i have consistently written "anti-choice/pro-life."
So, you admit you did it just to push my button and get me into the fight? If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry, but I still despise ALL the terms on BOTH sides and think they should be dumped in favor of just calling it what it really is- pro abortion and anti abortion, because that's what it comes down to, no matter how much you want to deny it. If you approve of the 'choice' of abortion, you are still in favor of abortion, aka, pro abortion, and again, if anyone is uncomfortable with that perhaps they need to reconsider their position.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:31 AM   #100
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
So, you admit you did it just to push my button and get me into the fight? If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry, but I still despise ALL the terms on BOTH sides and think they should be dumped in favor of just calling it what it really is- pro abortion and anti abortion, because that's what it comes down to, no matter how much you want to deny it. If you approve of the 'choice' of abortion, you are still in favor of abortion, aka, pro abortion, and again, if anyone is uncomfortable with that perhaps they need to reconsider their position.

no. if i only used "anti-choice" -- which i do in spoken discourse -- then i know that would send up a red flag for you. i include both terms so that you don't overreact and go of on this same rant we've all heard a dozen or so times.

and, you should realize, that simply because you object to the terms of the debate that others don't necessarily agree with you.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:34 AM   #101
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I am against the Death Penalty.

And I have no problems with Gay Marriage or Civil Union.

But, Abortions, there are far too many in my opinion...
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:39 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and, you should realize, that simply because you object to the terms of the debate that others don't necessarily agree with you.
Oh, I do realize that, that's why I have my rants, to try to show them how ridiculous it is to try to make themselves feel better about a very bad thing by using terms to sugar coat it and even make it appear noble. The 'anti-choice' one was invented just to try to make people who oppose abortion look bad, but it's not nearly as bad as supporting what abortion actually is, and it's hypocritical considering most pro abortion people want to take away guns, stop public smoking, and force me to wear seatbelts. Like I said, it's all so twisted I'd laugh, but I can't because it's too serious and sad.

Aww, go on and use your comfy wumfy widdle 'choice' terms if it makes you feel better, take away the scary ol' aborted fetus pic so you don't have to deal with the reality of what you support because that's not the way you 'choose' to think of it, or maybe someone can use photoshop to 'censor' that ugly wuggly ol' fetus pic with a fuzzy wuzzy widdle teddy bear or rubber ducky so you can all feel better! The baby isn't choppped up, isn't dead, the woman just had a choice! Smile!

Not only does using the terms to shield the horror of it annoy me, the very prospect that if it's a 'choice' it's okay bothers me too. What, so anything is okay as long as you want to do it? Everyone should be allowed to do anything they want? Rob a liquor store? Shoot your boss, hey, he's being an inconvenience to your life and causing you stress just like carrying that baby to term, can't we just 'terminate' him too so we can feel better? There are laws against doing bad things, and there is nothing more clearly and obviously wrong than the killing of a child. I have never heard of anything so bad being so fucking justified by so many since slavery and the genocide of the Native Americans in the 19th century. Historically, people will justify and rationalize anything if they want to do it anyway and not have to feel guilty.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:20 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife
If you think its necessary for people to see pictures like the one you posted last night, you could have posted a link with a disclaimer and at least given us a choice.
Yes, that would have been ok.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:38 AM   #104
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


Oh, I do realize that, that's why I have my rants, to try to show them how ridiculous it is to try to make themselves feel better about a very bad thing by using terms to sugar coat it and even make it appear noble. The 'anti-choice' one was invented just to try to make people who oppose abortion look bad, but it's not nearly as bad as supporting what abortion actually is, and it's hypocritical considering most pro abortion people want to take away guns, stop public smoking, and force me to wear seatbelts. Like I said, it's all so twisted I'd laugh, but I can't because it's too serious and sad.

Aww, go on and use your comfy wumfy widdle 'choice' terms if it makes you feel better, take away the scary ol' aborted fetus pic so you don't have to deal with the reality of what you support because that's not the way you 'choose' to think of it, or maybe someone can use photoshop to 'censor' that ugly wuggly ol' fetus pic with a fuzzy wuzzy widdle teddy bear or rubber ducky so you can all feel better! The baby isn't choppped up, isn't dead, the woman just had a choice! Smile!

Not only does using the terms to shield the horror of it annoy me, the very prospect that if it's a 'choice' it's okay bothers me too. What, so anything is okay as long as you want to do it? Everyone should be allowed to do anything they want? Rob a liquor store? Shoot your boss, hey, he's being an inconvenience to your life and causing you stress just like carrying that baby to term, can't we just 'terminate' him too so we can feel better? There are laws against doing bad things, and there is nothing more clearly and obviously wrong than the killing of a child. I have never heard of anything so bad being so fucking justified by so many since slavery and the genocide of the Native Americans in the 19th century. Historically, people will justify and rationalize anything if they want to do it anyway and not have to feel guilty.

i keep forgetting that you're not interested in having a rational discussion or debate on the topic.

i won't forget in the future, nor will i seek to be sensitive and include the "pro-life" label. from now on, i will label it as i see it -- anti-choice -- and ignore your rants.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:53 AM   #105
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I'm going to stay out of the meat and potatoes of this new little debate and just comment on the use of the word "choice" here. Being pro-choice means this:

I will support a woman's choice to go through with her pregnancy and keep her baby.

I will support a woman's choice to go through with her pregnancy and put the baby up for adoption if she cannot care for it.

I will support a woman's choice to have an abortion.

Every one of these three women have their reasons for making the choice that they do. It is not my place to tell them what to do, or to force any of them to choose something different.

All right. I've said my piece. Now from here on out I'll just observe whatever else this debate brings.

Angela
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