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Old 12-07-2006, 02:47 PM   #16
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Imo Turkey will be a hell-of-a-problem for Europe...Now you are 65 millions in some years you will become 100 million people...None will accept that Turkey have more votes from Germany or England or France in the Council...
In addition Turkey will need tremendous amounts of cash in order to achieve the quality of life that Europe has...Only part of Istanbul and the coast of Small Asia is somehow developed...The rest of the country is in 3rd world conditions...
We must also consider that 70% or so, of Europe's population doesn't want Turkey to be part of E.U....
And certainly during the negotiations there will be asked from the people to vote for Turkey...
This is the reason the E.U. constitution failed...
Do you think that the people of Austria would want to work to rebuild Turkey..?

These are only some of the reasons that I think the enterring of Turkey in E.U. is unrealistic for the time...
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:11 PM   #17
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Originally posted by DaveC
What is this "EU" you speak of?




European Union.
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Old 12-07-2006, 05:27 PM   #18
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Err, yes, I know. That was a joke, hence the




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Old 12-07-2006, 06:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
Imo Turkey will be a hell-of-a-problem for Europe...Now you are 65 millions in some years you will become 100 million people...None will accept that Turkey have more votes from Germany or England or France in the Council...
I realize this. But that's the system in the EU (democracy?) and if a country is against representative democracy then maybe they should reconsider being in the EU. From a real politik point of view, I see this as one of the reasons why Turkey will eventually not be admitted.

Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
In addition Turkey will need tremendous amounts of cash in order to achieve the quality of life that Europe has...Only part of Istanbul and the coast of Small Asia is somehow developed...The rest of the country is in 3rd world conditions...
[/B]
Have you actually been to Turkey that you make this assessment? There are parts of the country that are severely under developed, that's true, but cities like Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir, most of the west coast, Adana, Trabzon - where the majority of the people live, anyway- are probably just as developed as any Greek city. By the time Turkey is scheduled to enter, anyway, the country will be much more developed, considering the economy grows at 7% a year.

Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
We must also consider that 70% or so, of Europe's population doesn't want Turkey to be part of E.U....
And certainly during the negotiations there will be asked from the people to vote for Turkey...
This is the reason the E.U. constitution failed...
Do you think that the people of Austria would want to work to rebuild Turkey..?

These are only some of the reasons that I think the enterring of Turkey in E.U. is unrealistic for the time... [/B]
Rebuild? Rebuild from what? By the time Turkey is supposed to enter, hopefully we will not need to discuss infrastructure. It is upto the political leadership to inform their population and present the case for the Turkish membership. People are afraid of Turkey, because most of them don't know anything about it except for what they 'heard from someone'.

In any case, I am hoping the negotiations will continue, even if I don't believe that we will ever enter the EU. If the Europeans fail to understand why Turkey is important for them, that's too bad for them. Meanwhile, the negotiations will anchor stability in Turkey, and we will be stronger country for it. In 10-15 years, provided that the process goes on, Turkey may not even need the EU.

Just so you realize the scale of economic transition Turkey is going through, you might want to take a look at this report:

http://www.turkey-now.com/db/docs/ab...-ing2006_1.doc


An excerpt:
"based on an average annual growth rate of 6% between 2006 and 2015, together with a population of 81 million in 2015, foresee an increase in per capita income to $12,800 in terms of purchasing power parity, which works out to an aggregate national income of around $1 trillion.


These expectations are supported by the latest reports of international institutions. According to the IMF's World Economic Outlook, per capita income on a PPP basis will grow from $6,737 in 2002 to $8,393 in 2006. The corresponding GDP will grow from $448.9 billion to $611.6 billion during the same period. Accordingly, Turkey, among the top 24 economies, will rank 8th in income per capita increase with 24.6% and 6th in GDP increase with 36.2% in 2006 compared to 2002 — outpacing the U.S., Japan, Germany, England, France, Italy, and Brazil."

If Turkey doesn't make it into the EU, it will not be because of economics. It will be about petty regional politics and xenophobia.
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:27 PM   #20
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I think I said the same thing with you about the western turkish cities...
As for the economic stats, its obvious that a huge country would have a big PPP...
But have in mind that the Human Development Index (HDI) of your country is 94th in the world and that makes you a developing country along with Kazakhstan and Egypt...
Moreover the PPP rank per capita is 75th wich also is considered very low...

I simply don't believe that all the 12 million people in Istanbul are living in luxury, after all you also said it's the biggest Kurd's populated city...
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:36 PM   #21
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I also add that E.U. has also policies for the human rights that Turkey constantly violates...
I just mention the white cells, the constant attacks -and the denial of the opening of the Halki Theology School- of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Konstantinople, an ESTATE that excist for over 1500 years...
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:57 PM   #22
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To return to the Cyprus dispute I found this interesting clue:

The Geneva Convention of 1949, section III, article 49, prohibits colonization by an occupying power. Article 49 states in its last paragraph: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:21 PM   #23
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Originally posted by DaveC
Err, yes, I know. That was a joke, hence the




Fie on me for not having more of a sense of humor!
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
To return to the Cyprus dispute I found this interesting clue:

The Geneva Convention of 1949, section III, article 49, prohibits colonization by an occupying power. Article 49 states in its last paragraph: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
Well, since there is a de facto state in Northern Cyprus, and it is not 'occupied territory' but a state on its right, Turkey doesn't fit the description of an occupying power. It is the Turkish Cypriot state in Northern Cyprus that wants the Turkish troops to stay.
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
I also add that E.U. has also policies for the human rights that Turkey constantly violates...
I just mention the white cells, the constant attacks -and the denial of the opening of the Halki Theology School- of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Konstantinople, an ESTATE that excist for over 1500 years...
I agree that the Theology School shouldn't be closed. After all, the Church should be rendered capable to operate. However, I disagree with the ecumenical status. Turkey is a secular country and it will not recognize any encompassing religious authority other within its territory, whether that be an ecumenical church, a sheik of any kind, buddha or even galactic lord xeop. The school should be re-opened, but i am against the ecumenical status on the grounds of secularism.
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:24 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
I think I said the same thing with you about the western turkish cities...
As for the economic stats, its obvious that a huge country would have a big PPP...
But have in mind that the Human Development Index (HDI) of your country is 94th in the world and that makes you a developing country along with Kazakhstan and Egypt...
Moreover the PPP rank per capita is 75th wich also is considered very low...

I simply don't believe that all the 12 million people in Istanbul are living in luxury, after all you also said it's the biggest Kurd's populated city...
Well, it is not obvious that a country would have a big PPP, because it is calculated on a PER CAPITA basis.

In any case, I am not talking about the current state of the country. I have showed you the projections, and although I don't have the data to project their effects on Turkey's HDI ranking, its pretty obvious that it would be much better.

Of course, all 12 million people are living in luxury, the income gap is similar to that of any big city in the world.

You haven't answered one thing I asked earlier, though. Have you actually been to Turkey? Since you feel that you're such an expert on the country...
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:14 PM   #27
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You are constantly talking about a -de facto- state that IT DOESN'T EXCIST in the maps...!!!!!!
ACCEPT THAT AND WHEN YOU DO, COME LATER TO DISCUSS IT...
the United Nations recognises the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus over the whole island...
Let me tell you that time is on our side and if Turkey doesn't accept the facts in 20 years time the only thing that will remain in Northern Cyprus is ruins of trnc...
I wonder what would Turkey do if they were asked by trnc to withdraw the troops...You don't have to answer that...

I'm sorry that you can't understant the meaning and the significance of an ESTATE that was born 1000 years before you came there...

These figures are from wikipedia:
GDP (PPP) 2006 estimate
- Total $612.3 billion (17th)
- Per capita $8,385 (75th)

Moreover inform us 'cause I didn't heard in details about the yesterdays riots in Istanbul...Not very nice acts by wealthy people...

As for your question I didn't see it that's why I didn't answer it...No I haven't, but I'm planning to visit Istanbul this March...I have nothing with Turkey as long as it doesn't act like an empire...

Now after you confute my comments,
tell me, why you answer ALL my questions with wishes..?
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:37 PM   #28
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Yesterday someone (GÜL?) proposed the opening of only one airport and a port, in addition they demanded the remission of the isolation of Northern Cyprus...Nice dribble, we wont bite, but as usual the Generals interfered.
from bbc:
In an interview with Turkey's Hurriyet newspaper, Gen Buyukanit described the offer as a departure from the official line and said he had first heard about it on television.
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
You are constantly talking about a -de facto- state that IT DOESN'T EXCIST in the maps...!!!!!!
ACCEPT THAT AND WHEN YOU DO, COME LATER TO DISCUSS IT...
the United Nations recognises the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus over the whole island...
Let me tell you that time is on our side and if Turkey doesn't accept the facts in 20 years time the only thing that will remain in Northern Cyprus is ruins of trnc...
I wonder what would Turkey do if they were asked by trnc to withdraw the troops...You don't have to answer that...

I'm sorry that you can't understant the meaning and the significance of an ESTATE that was born 1000 years before you came there...

These figures are from wikipedia:
GDP (PPP) 2006 estimate
- Total $612.3 billion (17th)
- Per capita $8,385 (75th)

Moreover inform us 'cause I didn't heard in details about the yesterdays riots in Istanbul...Not very nice acts by wealthy people...

As for your question I didn't see it that's why I didn't answer it...No I haven't, but I'm planning to visit Istanbul this March...I have nothing with Turkey as long as it doesn't act like an empire...

Now after you confute my comments,
tell me, why you answer ALL my questions with wishes..?
Do you realize what 'de facto' means? The fact that the UN doesnt recognize TRNC or that its not on the maps only reflects its 'de jure' status. De facto means that in reality, it operates as a state, but is not recognized by international law. The fact that it is not recognized doesnt mean it doesnt exists.. well.. in REALITY, lets say. Why would there be ruins in place of TRNC, in any case? Turkey will keep supporting the country until the island is unified, so you dont have to worry about that.

If TRNC were to ask for Turkish troops to be removed, Turkey would certainly have to do so, but this is such an inconceivable contingency - since TRNC doesnt have an army of its own to protect itself - that it is rather meaningless to discuss.

I certainly understand that the Orthodox Christians see it as the Catholics see the Vatican. Islam used to have such an authority, the Caliphate, which was the Ottoman Sultan himself, until the Caliphate and its religious authority was removed. You shouldn't see as a persecution of Christians, because this is not what it is, but as a secular country keeping its distance with all religions. If the Orthodox church was to be given ecumenical status, how can we say no to someone who wants to declare a Caliphate in Turkey, without being hypocritical? If you are arguing that secularism shouldn't be exercised because the Church is so important to you, then why not do it in Athens instead?

Coming back to your point about Turkey's per capita GDP, a short look to the new entrants Latvia (PPP, 10.400 dollars) and soon to be EU member Romania (8.100 dollars) would refute any economical reason why Turkey shouldn't be allowed because it has low per capita GDP. Also, if you take a look at the projections, Turkey is bound to be much richer by the time it is granted entry. I don't understand why you disregard this.

Back to the riots youre talking about, I havent seen any reports of this, could you give me a source about this?

Well, I am sure you will feel welcome in Istanbul, and maybe you might even change your mind about a couple of things you seem to be so sure about at the moment.

I'm sorry, maybe I havent followed through well enough, could you explain further what you mean by all your questions being answered with wishes?
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
Yesterday someone (GÜL?) proposed the opening of only one airport and a port, in addition they demanded the remission of the isolation of Northern Cyprus...Nice dribble, we wont bite, but as usual the Generals interfered.
from bbc:
In an interview with Turkey's Hurriyet newspaper, Gen Buyukanit described the offer as a departure from the official line and said he had first heard about it on television.
Greek Cypriots sure seem intent on seeing the North suffer, strangely enough. Greek Cypriot government only wants concessions, but doesnt offer anything in return. What a remarkably inept approach to the idea of 'negotiating'.
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