EU-Turkey relations: another crisis over Cyprus

[menelaos]

For example, you said that the School shouldn't have closed...Too bad, it's closed...
Also, in your own words: "I concur that there ought to be some sort of compensation of property for people who were displaced", too bad these stolen houses are being sold to British...
Also you mention some economic predictions, 2 years ago none predicted that the european rates would climb to todays figures..You talk about 15-years-from-now measures...
about the Cyprus negotiations: "will become closer and this will also eliminate any vague threat of conflict between the countries"
Who threatens with war who..? The International Law states that any the countries can extend their territorial waters in 12 miles...For what country this means casus belli..?
Moreover do you think that greek-cypriots would ever take guns and conquer the north part..?It's easier with the money...

 

[all_i_want]

For example, you said that the School shouldn't have closed...Too bad, it's closed...
Also, in your own words: "I concur that there ought to be some sort of compensation of property for people who were displaced", too bad these stolen houses are being sold to British...
Also you mention some economic predictions, 2 years ago none predicted that the european rates would climb to todays figures..You talk about 15-years-from-now measures...
about the Cyprus negotiations: "will become closer and this will also eliminate any vague threat of conflict between the countries"
Who threatens with war who..? The International Law states that any the countries can extend their territorial waters in 12 miles...For what country this means casus belli..?
Moreover do you think that greek-cypriots would ever take guns and conquer the north part..?It's easier with the money...

Well, what else can I say? I'd rather have it opened, but since I am not really the prime minister, there isnt much I can do but express my opinion on the matter.

TRNC sat up an authority for people who want to be compensated for their property, 82 applications were made so far. Since they are not able to get back their property due to the political situation, they are being financially compensated. How is this not reasonable?

By the way, those are not 15 year predictions, but forecasts for 2015, 9 years from now. There is of course a chance that they wont come true, since they are FORECASTS, but based on the current data that is the most likely outcome, which is what a forecast is. Looking back at the Turkish economy's record for the last 5 years, these forecasts are quite reasonable. Since this is my field professionally, I should also say that European interest rates have more to do with the EMS than anything else, which led to such erratic movements in the interest rates in the past. It is very difficult to predict interest movements in a monetary union with so many countries with different economic realities.

If Greek islands extend their territorial waters to 12 miles, this would in fact mean that a Turkish citizen in Izmir would need a visa to swim in the sea, which is rather ridiculous. Also, this would mean that the whole Aegan would basically become Greek territory because of all the tiny islands, something that is simply unacceptable due to geopolitical reasons. That is why it is casus belli. But this issue isn't related to the current debate (Cyprus), so I don't want to go on and on about it.

I don't know if the Greek Cypriots would do that, but no one is really counting on what they would or wouldnt do while making policy decisions.

 

[menelaos]

Greek Cypriots sure seem intent on seeing the North suffer, strangely enough. Greek Cypriot government only wants concessions, but doesnt offer anything in return. What a remarkably inept approach to the idea of 'negotiating'.

Eventhough you ignored the second part of the post I will answer your statements..
It seems that you haven't read the agreements well...Turkey has signed a treaty that compels, to open the ports to the 10 new entries of 2004 including Cyprus...Europe is not the Grant Bazaar...

 

[all_i_want]

Originally posted by menelaos [/B]

In an interview with Turkey's Hurriyet newspaper, Gen Buyukanit described the offer as a departure from the official line and said he had first heard about it on television. [/B]

I could also refer to this statement, as well, but I thought my previous statements were rather clear and this issue isn't directly related to the Cyprus issue.

The political realities in Turkey have unfortunately required the army to also assume a political role in the last few decades, one of these being the fear of Islamic fundamentalism. The army is one of the best educated and pro-western groups in Turkey. I concur that they are supposed to be under civilian authority, but this is a gradual process. I, as a Turkish citizen, feel more comfortable knowing that the army will never allow the country to be divided or driven towards fundamentalism. I directly apprehend the current government for being so religion oriented as it is. As the population is gradually better educated and more worldly, the political reality will change and we will not need the army to keep islamic tendencies at bay.

 

[menelaos]

First: Law is Law...
Second: Why not become a greek lake..? do you have any islands in this Sea that you hide them from everyone..?
The passports thing you 're talking about is just a firework and lie 'cause there will be a treaty for the Turkish coastal side...
After all it's called Aegean Sea and not Kemalean Sea...
Go find a map and search for Crete, this is my island...Under that island there is one more tiny island wich is called Gaudos...Guess what..? Turkish say it a "grey zone" and not recognize the greek authority...Ridicullous, isn't it..?
Third: this agency you mention, only accept individual applications...
Fourth: War nowdays is not acceptable method of solution, only the barbarians and the mindless use it as a threat...

 

[all_i_want]

Eventhough you ignored the second part of the post I will answer your statements..
It seems that you haven't read the agreements well...Turkey has signed a treaty that compels, to open the ports to the 10 new entries of 2004 including Cyprus...Europe is not the Grant Bazaar...

That treaty was signed with a declaration from Ankara saying that the terms will not be applied to Cyprus until the island is unified.

It was also coupled by a political commitment by the EU to remove the isolation of the TRNC, a commitment which is yet to be fulfilled.

Cyprus needs to return to the negotiation table in the UN framework to solve this issue, instead of trying to blackmailing Turkey into compliance. It is not only hostile and negative, but Greek Cypriots might learn it the hard way that Turkey is willing to risk a veto in the EU process to stand its political ground. Cyprus' threat of a veto is not credible, because once they do veto Turkey, they lose the EU leverage to push Turkey towards a solution, the result would be a forever divided island. It would hardly matter to Turkey, if not for the EU. Why doesn't the Cypriot government recognize this?

 

[all_i_want]

First: Law is Law...
Second: Why not become a greek lake..? do you have any islands in this Sea that you hide them from everyone..?
The passports thing you 're talking about is just a firework and lie 'cause there will be a treaty for the Turkish coastal side...
After all it's called Aegean Sea and not Kemalean Sea...
Go find a map and search for Crete, this is my island...Under that islan there is one more tiny island wich is called Gaudos...Guess what..? Turkish say it a "grey zone" and not recognize the greek authority...Ridicullous, isn't it..?
Third: this agency you mention, only accept individual applications...
Fourth: War nowdays is not acceptable method of solution, only the barbarians and the mindless use it as a threat...

First: They probably didn't have the Aegean in mind while writing the law.
Second: Why not become a Greek lake? Because the Greek islands are too close to the Turkish shores, 12 sea miles territorial waters would compromise Turkish territorial integrity. Also, it is politically unacceptable because Turkish ships would be denied free entry to the Mediterranean. I don't know about this Gaudos issue, so I can't comment on it.
Third: Of course, what is it supposed to do? Why don't people apply individually? Whats wrong with that?
Fourth: No country would allow its territorial integrity to be challenged. War is a means of policy, and what is effective is not the war itself, but the deterrent power of it.

In any case, if Turkey joins the EU, the whole Aegean will be EU waters and then there will be no need to worry about this. The issue would resolve itself. If it doesn't, Greece would really have no way of imposing its policy over Turkey, and status quo would continue.

 

[menelaos]

I guess they choose the best worst scenario for them...Cyprus is extremely wealthy island...They don't fear E.U. 's penalties and consequences, they also know that the only one that losses from the non-solution is Turkish-Cypriots...They are pretty well in their hotels...As for the commitment you mention, stop to have power from the time that Cyprus decided not to accept the Annan Plan...These commitments aren't in any case binding for E.U. or Cyprus...

 

[menelaos]

"Third: Of course, what is it supposed to do? Why don't people apply individually? Whats wrong with that?"
This means, that someone who wants to apply for this commitee must pay enormous expenses to the lawyers...Time and money...The purpose of this is clear..They want to prevent someone to apply for this commitee...

"They probably didn't have the Aegean in mind while writing the law." So Turkey will help them get it in their minds by attacking another indepentend nation...

 

[all_i_want]

I guess they choose the best worst scenario for them...Cyprus is extremely wealthy island...They don't fear E.U. 's penalties and consequences, they also know that the only one that losses from the non-solution is Turkish-Cypriots...They are pretty well in their hotels...As for the commitment you mention, stop to have power from the time that Cyprus decided not to accept the Annan Plan...These commitments aren't in any case binding for E.U. or Cyprus...

EU made these commitments when Ankara protocol was being signed. That is 2005, Cyprus rejected the Annan plan in 2004. Time flows forward, not backwards. Therefore, the EU commitment IS binding, in fact.

If Cyprus is so extremely happy anyway and have nothing to lose, they might as well stop complaining and get on with their lives instead of bothering the EU with all these demands.

 

[all_i_want]

"Third: Of course, what is it supposed to do? Why don't people apply individually? Whats wrong with that?"
This means, that someone who wants to apply for this commitee must pay enormous expenses to the lawyers...Time and money...The purpose of this is clear..They want to prevent someone to apply for this commitee...

"They probably didn't have the Aegean in mind while writing the law." So Turkey will help them get it in their minds by attacking another indepentend nation...

Maybe the Greek Cypriot government should compensate their losses due to legal expenses, then? Since THEY are also the reason why the conflict isnt solved by now and the island remains divided. If the loss of those houses is a crime, Greek Cypriots are complicit.

Hmm.. do you mean another nation that was ruled by a military junta and was about to be MERGED into another country?? Like Cyprus was in the 70s? That is the kind of country Turkey waged war against. I don't even know which independent nation you have in mind or how this is relevant to the territorial waters issue or international law, for that matter. Maybe you could explain further?

 

[menelaos]

You set off the losses of 1000 people with the losses of 50.000 people...
Unfortunately, the Ioannides regime back in '74 gave the OCCASION to Turkey to invade the island...It's also fact that Kissinger knew everything about the forthcoming invasion and did nothing to prevent it...Also it is common sense here in Greece that there must be a link between U.S. and that regime...Unfortunately some traitors gave the oportunity to Turkey, don't forget that all the Turkish claims are consequences of that disastrous acts...
As for the last it's an ironic thought I made...You won't attack a NATO ally just because this ally obeys an international law...

Moreover I can't find something official about the Ankara protocol, please give me an official link...If it was so simple all Cyprus positions would have collapsed easilly, don't you think..?

"If Cyprus is so extremely happy anyway and have nothing to lose, they might as well stop complaining and get on with their lives instead of bothering the EU with all these demands."

There is an undeniable history behind this...If they stop claiming their legal rights, who guarantees if Turkey won't invade the rest of the island..?

edit:
p.s. all_i_want do you study and live in NJ..?

 

[menelaos]

Because it's late here, tomorrow I 'll come and talk about some historical issues...
F.e. the 1960-74 constitution, and the illegall Turkish immigrants that make the Turkish Cypriots a minority in their own land...
But time for some rest...!
C.u.

 

[all_i_want]

You set off the losses of 1000 people with the losses of 50.000 people...
Unfortunately, the Ioannides regime back in '74 gave the OCCASION to Turkey to invade the island...It's also fact that Kissinger knew everything about the forthcoming invasion and did nothing to prevent it...Also it is common sense here in Greece that there must be a link between U.S. and that regime...Unfortunately some traitors gave the oportunity to Turkey, don't forget that all the Turkish claims are consequences of that disastrous acts...
As for the last it's an ironic thought I made...You won't attack a NATO ally just because this ally obeys an international law...

Moreover I can't find something official about the Ankara protocol, please give me an official link...If it was so simple all Cyprus positions would have collapsed easilly, don't you think..?

"If Cyprus is so extremely happy anyway and have nothing to lose, they might as well stop complaining and get on with their lives instead of bothering the EU with all these demands."

There is an undeniable history behind this...If they stop claiming their legal rights, who guarantees if Turkey won't invade the rest of the island..?

edit:
p.s. all_i_want do you study and live in NJ..?

I'd regard it not as an 'occassion', but as a 'valid reason'.

If there is a state policy such as casus belli, this clearly indicates the importance of the issue to Turkey. I am not sure if this policy could be made more credible than a declaration of casus belli.

Here is the press release from Turkish MFA on the Ankara Agreement, additional protocol and the Turkish declaration.

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/MFA/PressInfo...s/pressReleases2005/July/NO123_29July2005.htm

There are also references to the additional protocol there.

EU resolution after the no in to the UN plan, committing to removing isolations from TRNC and furthering economic integration and trade:

European Union Parliamentary Assembly Resolution no. 1376 (2004):
“The Parliamentary Assembly is profoundly disappointed by the failure, following the massive "no" vote by the Greek Cypriot community, of the international community's efforts to end the division of Cyprus and enable the two Cypriot communities to together join the European Union on 1 May 2004.
The Assembly pays tribute to Mr Kofi Annan, Secretary-General of the United Nations, and his colleagues, who have made a tremendous contribution towards achieving a settlement of the Cyprus problem.
The Assembly pays tribute to the Turkish Cypriots, who supported the Annan Plan by an overwhelming majority, thus opting for a future in Europe. The international community, and in particular the Council of Europe and the European Union, cannot ignore or betray the expressed desire of a majority of Turkish Cypriots for greater openness and should take rapid and appropriate steps to encourage it. The Turkish Cypriots' international isolation must cease.
The Assembly therefore welcomes the support expressed by several European political leaders for financial assistance for the Turkish Cypriots and an easing of the international sanctions against them. The United Nations should also consider whether the resolutions on which the sanctions are based are still justified. The Assembly considers it unfair for the Turkish Cypriot community, which has expressed clear support for a reunited and European Cyprus, to continue to be denied representation in the European political debate. Such continued isolation may help strengthen the positions of those who are opposing a unified Cyprus.

President of the Council of Europe, Committee of Ministers and the Foreign Minister of Netherlands Mr. Bot’s statement of 28 April 2004 (at the European Council Parliamentary Assembly meeting)

“We will now need to look for ways and means to make sure that the Turkish Cypriots do not remain isolated and avoid that they suffer unduly from the rejection of the UN Plan which they supported by a large majority.”

Here's the link:

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/MFA/ForeignPolicy/MainIssues/Cyprus/Whattheworldsaid_afterthereferanda.htm

You can confirm it from the EU websites as well, if you like.

There is simply no reason why Turkey would invade the rest of the island, so I fail to see why the Greek Cypriots would be afraid of this.

On the last question, erm.. New Jersey? Not really.. why? I am studying in Norway. Not very similar places

 

[all_i_want]

Here's the end result. After all the talk, they ended up agreeing on the first thing they agreed on.


EU freezes parts of Turkish accession talks
By Daniel Dombey and George Parker in Brussels

Published: December 11 2006 20:31 | Last updated: December 11 2006 20:31

European Union foreign ministers on Monday decided to put large parts of Turkey’s membership talks on hold, in a move Ankara had long sought to prevent. Monday’s decision forbids negotiations from beginning on eight of the 35 topics Turkey needs to agree with the EU before it can become a member.

Under the terms of the decision, talks in these areas can now only go forward once Turkey opens its ports to Cyprus, which is an EU member but not recognised by Ankara.


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Some member states such as the UK had warned that sending a negative signal to Turkey could alienate Ankara and much of the Islamic world, but on Monday night all 25 EU governments backed the move to suspend part of the talks as a compromise between Britain and its supporters in one corner, and Cyprus and Greece in the other.

Olli Rehn, EU enlargement commissioner, emphasised that the final deal did not include a “ultimatum” for Turkey, since it did not specify a deadline for Ankara to open its ports to Cyprus. The deal also looks likely to prevent the issue of Turkey from dominating an EU summit later this week, a possibility many governments feared could heighten tensions with Ankara.

The European Commission argues that suspending part of the talks is better than the status quo, since in recent months Cyprus has used its veto to block all parts of the negotiations.

“This is a question of the credibility of the EU,” said Philippe Douste-Blazy, French foreign minister, who highlighted the EU’s repeated calls for Turkey to open up access to Cyprus.

But other member states had previously resisted the proposals endorsed on Monday, which also rule out concluding any individual topics for negotiation.

Some countries had pressed for the EU to soften the blow of the part-suspension of the Turkish talks by stressing United Nations efforts to reach a comprehensive settlement for Cyprus, and the EU’s own stalled attempt to reduce the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot population.

Cypriot opposition on this issue proved the final sticking point on Monday night. But under the deal ultimately reached, the EU agreed to endorse both goals, but only through a combination of a declaration by Finland, which holds the EU presidency, and a foreign ministers’ resolution next month.

Tensions between Ankara and Brussels have mounted since negotiations began in October 2005. The EU has faulted Turkey for its failure to open up trade to ships from Cyprus, as well as its slow progress in implementing reforms. The Turkish government has criticised the EU for not meeting its own promise to reduce the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community.

Although Turkey sought to resolve the crisis last week by suggesting a deal in which it would open a port to traffic from Cyprus, this has failed to win support within the EU. EU member states argue that Turkey’s ideas are too vague.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2006