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Old 04-08-2009, 03:29 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
every donation I ever made is on line now, it has always been.(for as long as I can remember been available to the public, they make one complete a form when one donates)

I think about my donations, especially when they are for local races and I know and am friends with more than one candidate.
Donations of $99 and less are not published, sometimes I go that route.

If this information was not available the "right" and religious people would be real upset.
They like to target people that support "pro choice", 'gun control' and 'pro immigration' and the like.

I do agree Prop 8 was Prop 'Hate'.
It was 'hate' that fueled it and 'hate' that made the pro 8 people donate. They will tell you it is 'hate' the sin. But it is still 'hate' directed at people.
Because 'sin' requires people doing so-called 'sinful' behavior.
Note this "sinful" behavior in question is perfectly legal and deemed by science and medicine to be natural.
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"Prop 8 Maps" Outs Supporters of Proposition 8
January 15, 2009 by Mark Whittington

Prop 8 Maps is a project that uses Google Maps and the public list of donors who contributed money to Proposition 8 in San Francisco to provide a map pinpointing the addresses of the donors throughout San Francisco.

Proposition 8 was a measure recently approved by the people of California defining marriage as an institution between one man and one woman, thus banning the practice of same sex marriage in California. The passage of Prop 8 has angered many gay activists and their allies and"Prop 8 Maps" Outs Supporters of Proposition 8 has led to ugly incidents, including angry demonstrations in front of Mormon Churches

The purpose of Prop 8 Maps appears to be to out people who contributed money to the passage of Prop 8 and to provide an easy way to locate them. Thus, people who supported Prop 8 with money can be subject to harassment, demonstrations, and perhaps worse. The theory is that they will think twice before doing it again.

Naturally the people behind Prop 8 Maps prefer to remain anonymous.

Those of us who give their opinion for a living are very used to anonymous people expressing their ire. The nature of the Internet allows people to express the most outrageous sentiments and to hide behind a pseudonym to protect themselves. Most of this sort of thing consists of angry emails and postings in comments sections and can be laughed off.

Prop 8 Maps is something else entirely. Feelings over the passage of Prop 8 have run so high in certain quarters, Prop 8 Maps actually place people who supported Prop 8 with money in physical danger. At the very least, people who gave money for the passage of Prop 8 can expect people camped in their front lawns yelling at them as they go to and fro on their business. They can also expect retaliation at their places of work/business. Death threats and perhaps actual attempts at mayhem can follow.

Writing as someone who is sympathetic to the idea of same sex marriage, one cannot express strongly enough how stupid and counter-productive this tactic is. It will backfire, especially if someone comes to harm as a result.
EightMaps.com.

Let's get 'em !!
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:31 PM   #77
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Except many of these people have actually been physically or verbally intimidated. And for nothing more than participating in the democratic process.
ok, that does sound kind of bad

how do you think it equates with having their marriage rights taken away from them?

you mention divorce, well those divorced people choose to be divorced

what if these people you seem to be concerned about had their marriages dissolved by a controversial public vote funded by left-wing extremist,
that just don't like 'closed-minded', religious people and believe the Government should not support or recognize their chosen life style?
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:48 PM   #78
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how do you think it equates with having their marriage rights taken away from them?
Not gonna restart the whole argument but if they had any less rights than you or I then I'd agree. They have the same right to marry anyone I do, just not...
Quote:
you mention divorce, well those divorced people choose to be divorced

what if these people you seem to be concerned about had their marriages dissolved by a controversial public vote funded left-wing extremist, that just don't like 'closed-minded', religious people and believe the Government should not support or recognize their chosen life style?
Would there be 1,500 years of law and tradition behind that?
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:52 PM   #79
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Tradition don't mean shit!!! I'm so tired of that excuse, it's weak.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:53 PM   #80
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Except many of these people have actually been physically or verbally intimidated. And for nothing more than participating in the democratic process.

would you like to cite your sources? one or two idiots outside of a Mormon church is not at all indicative of an entire movement, nor are Christians who go to the Castro right as the bars are closing to "pray" for the people on the streets exactly doing anything other than asking for people to shout at them.

ever been to a pro-life or pro-choice march? you'll see lots of verbal intimidation. please show me a contentious social issue in which both sides discuss the issue by mutually affirming the worth and value of the other side's argument.

i guess we're going to hold the gays (and their straight allies) to a higher standard.



Quote:
And unless you can name me a Hollywood celebrity who publicly endorsed Prop 8 then I guess we can assume there is a de facto blacklist in place. Remember when those were a bad thing?

or maybe it's just really unpopular in Hollywood given the fact that most people in the arts work with gay people all the time.

you can assume all you want, but does it surprise you that such a thing would be unpopular amongst the "Hollywood Left"?


Quote:
The "destruction of society" (your term) isn't anti-gay as it as been applied to other deviations from traditional marriage as well such as high divorce rates and out of wedlock births. Which, while maybe not "destroying," are certainly having detrimental effects on society are they not?


what do gay people have to do with high divorce rates and out-of-wedlock births? and are you going to claim that any deviation from "traditional" marriage -- which i guess we have to assume means 13 year old girls, no interracial marriage, no inter-faith marriage -- is somehow a bad thing?

i guess there is some comfort in living by the rules of a medieval polity in a totalist universe where everything reflects the same understood and unquestioned Truth, where all questions have answers, and all human needs are exactly the same and gender roles are rigid and defined and enduring and natural and God-given, and yet at the same time, so fragile that we need to reinforce said gender roles with likewise rigid and defined laws. if human nature is so enduring, if homosexuality is such an unnatural thing, then surely nature will win?

if you want to make the argument that sex is only for reproduction and that marriage is only for the rearing of biological offspring, go ahead and do so. i don't think that's an argument you're going to win with most of contemporary America (or the contemporary West). perhaps you might find points of commonality with other religiously reactionary cultures in the Middle East and Central Asia?

or maybe you can first show me the "detrimental effects" that gay people have on society.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:58 PM   #81
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Not gonna restart the whole argument but if they had any less rights than you or I then I'd agree. They have the same right to marry anyone I do
you know that is not true.


you and I can marry anyone we love that agrees to marry us.



you are acting like when "gay marriage" is recognized the 92% or whatever the number is for straight people will be made to choose a spouse of the same sex.


it is legal for you and I to date and have intimate relations with members of the same sex, 30+ years ago it was not.
Because it is legal now are you more inclined to date someone of the same gender?
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:59 PM   #82
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Except many of these people have actually been physically or verbally intimidated.
This is terrible behavior. As terrible as the behavior of any group that is furious at being denied full Constitutional protection. Personally, I thought this behavior was counterproductive, as it gave people like you plenty of distractions from the real issue.

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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
How was this case critically different from any other instance of someone suing their county or state on the grounds that their constitutional rights were violated? Should states be able to arbitrarily declare particular subjects of legislation ineligible for judicial redress?
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can you give an example of any SCOTUS decision that isn't a "judicial fiat"?
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But do we apply this to other issues of Constitutional protection? To wait and see how it goes, mean while generations of people wait to see if their Constitutional protection doesn't offend the majority?
Now, how about a focus on the real issue and the real questions.
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:00 PM   #83
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Not gonna restart the whole argument but if they had any less rights than you or I then I'd agree. They have the same right to marry anyone I do, just not...


so i have a right to marry your daughter?

are you sure?
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:01 PM   #84
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so i have a right to marry your daughter?
Do I?
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:02 PM   #85
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It's ridiculous that anyone is still arguing over Civil Rights in 2009. Gay rights, women's right, the rights of minorities in any way, shape or form are civil rights and in a broader sense Human Rights. To deny them to anyone is absolutely despicable.
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:03 PM   #86
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easy guys, you might get an acceptance
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:32 PM   #87
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I dunno about this reasoning - how come the constitution doesn't protect the rights of the unborn in spite of the wishes of the majority of the US electorate?


here you go.

Unborn Victims of Violence Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:35 PM   #88
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since INDY is kind of alone on this and it isn't easy to keep up, here's the NRO's opinion piece on the subject. not that this is INDY's position, but just to add something to the discussion:


Quote:
The Future of Marriage
By the Editors

One of the great coups of the movement for same-sex marriage has been to plant the premise that it represents the inevitable future. This sense has inhibited even some who know perfectly well that marriage is by nature the union of a man and a woman. They fear that throwing themselves into the cause of opposing it is futile — worse, that it will call down the judgment of history that they were bigots.

Contrary to common perception, however, the public is not becoming markedly more favorable toward same-sex marriage. Support for same-sex marriage rose during the 1990s but seems to have frozen in place (at least according to Gallup) since the high court of Massachusetts invented a right to same-sex marriage earlier this decade.

Our guess is that if the federal judiciary does not intervene to impose same-sex marriage on the entire country, we are not going to see it triumph from coast to coast. Rather, we will for some time have a patchwork of laws. The division will not be so much between socially liberal and conservative states as between those states where voters can amend their state constitutions easily and those where they cannot. Thus same-sex marriage is likely to stay the law of the land in Massachusetts, Iowa, and Vermont, and perhaps also in New Hampshire.

In two of those states, at least, democratic procedure is now being respected. Vermont has chosen to recognize same-sex marriages legislatively, and New Hampshire may do so. Other states, such as Connecticut, have legislated recognition of civil unions for same-sex couples. While free from the taint of lawlessness, these decisions seem to us unwise. Few social goods will come from recognizing same-sex couples as married. Some practical benefits may accrue to the couples, but most of them could easily be realized without changing marriage laws. Same-sex couples will also receive the symbolic affirmation of being treated by the state as equivalent to a traditional married couple — but this spurious equality is a cost of the new laws, not a benefit. One still sometimes hears people make the allegedly “conservative” case for same-sex marriage that it will reduce promiscuity and encourage commitment among homosexuals. This prospect seems improbable, and in any case these do not strike us as important governmental goals.

Both as a social institution and as a public policy, marriage exists to foster connections between heterosexual sex and the rearing of children within stable households. It is a non-coercive way to channel (heterosexual) desire into civilized patterns of living. State recognition of the marital relationship does not imply devaluation of any other type of relationship, whether friendship or brotherhood. State recognition of those other types of relationships is unnecessary. So too is the governmental recognition of same-sex sexual relationships, committed or otherwise, in a deep sense pointless.

No, we do not expect marriage rates to plummet and illegitimacy rates to skyrocket in these jurisdictions over the next decade. But to the extent same-sex marriage is normalized here, it will be harder for American culture and law to connect marriage and parenthood. That it has already gotten harder over the last few decades is no answer to this concern. In foisting same-sex marriage on Iowa, the state’s supreme court opined in a footnote that the idea that it is best for children to have mothers and fathers married to each other is merely based on “stereotype.”

If worse comes to worst, and the federal courts sweep aside the marriage laws that most Americans still want, then decades from now traditionalists should be ready to brandish that footnote and explain to generations yet unborn: That is why we resisted.


there's also this:

http://www.politico.com/singletitlev...id=18852128001
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:46 PM   #89
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and here's more from the people who brought you the above ad:



Quote:
SAME-SEX MARRIAGE:
Answering the Toughest Questions

Strong majorities of Americans oppose gay marriage. Supporters of SSM therefore seek to change the subject to just about anything: discrimination, benefits, homosexuality, gay rights, federalism, our sacred constitution. Our goal is simple: Shift the conversation rapidly back to marriage. Don’t get sidetracked. Marriage is the issue. Marriage is what we care about. Marriage really matters. It’s just common sense.



I. THE MOST EFFECTIVE SINGLE SENTENCE:

Extensive and repeated polling agrees that the single most effective message is:

"Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose,
they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us."

This allows people to express support for tolerance while opposing gay marriage. Some modify it to “People have a right to live as they choose, they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us.”

Language to avoid at all costs: "Ban same-sex marriage." Our base loves this wording. So do supporters of SSM. They know it causes us to lose about ten percentage points in polls. Don’t use it. Say we’re against “redefining marriage” or in favor or “marriage as the union of husband and wife” NEVER “banning same-sex marriage.”



II. MAIN MESSAGE THE 3X5 CARD.

• Marriage is between a husband and wife. The people of [this state] do not want marriage to be anything but that. We do not want government or judges changing that definition for us today or our children tomorrow.

• We need a marriage amendment to settle the gay marriage issue once and for all, so we don’t have it in our face every day for the next ten years.

• Marriage is about bringing together men and women so children can have mothers and fathers.

• Do we want to teach the next generation that one-half of humanity—either mothers or fathers—are dispensable, unimportant? Children are confused enough right now with sexual messages. Let’s not confuse them further.

• Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose; they don’t have a right to redefine marriage for the rest of us.



III. FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

1. Are you a bigot? “Why do you want to take away people’s rights?”
“Isn’t it wrong to write discrimination into the constitution?”

A: “Do you really believe people like me who believe mothers and fathers both matter to kids are like bigots and racists? I think that’s pretty offensive, don’t you? Particularly to the 60 percent of African-Americans who oppose same-sex marriage. Marriage as the union of husband and wife isn’t new; it’s not taking away anyone’s rights. It’s common sense.”

2. Isn’t the ban on gay marriage like bans on interracial marriage?

A: “Bans on interracial marriage were about keeping two races apart so that one race could oppress the other. Marriage is about bringing two sexes together, so that children get the love of their own mom and a dad, and women don’t get stuck with the enormous disadvantages of parenting alone.” “Having a parent of two different races is just not the same as being deprived of your mother—or your father.”

3. Why do we need a constitutional amendment? “Isn’t DOMA enough?”

A: “Lawsuits like the one that imposed gay marriage in Massachusetts now threaten marriage in at least 12 other states so far. We need a marriage amendment to settle the issue once and for all, so we don’t have this debate in our face every day. The people get to decide what marriage means. No-end run around the rules by activist judges or grandstanding San-Francisco-style politicians.”

4. What’s the harm from SSM? “How can Adam and Steve hurt your marriage?”

A: “Who gets harmed? The people of this state who lose our right to define marriage as the union of husband and wife, that’s who. That is just not right.”

A: “If courts rule that same-sex marriage is a civil right, then, people like you and me who believe children need moms and dads will be treated like bigots and racists.”

“Religious groups like Catholic Charities or the Salvation Army may lose their tax exemptions, or be denied the use of parks and other public facilities, unless they endorse gay marriage."

“Public schools will teach young children that two men being intimate are just the same as a husband and wife, even when it comes to raising kids.”

“When the idea that children need moms and dads get legally stigmatized as bigotry, the job of parents and faith communities trying to transmit a marriage culture to their kids is going to get a lot harder.”

“One thing is for sure: The people of this state will lose our right to keep marriage as the union of a husband and wife. That’s not right.”

5. Why do you want to interfere with love?

A: “Love is a great thing. But marriage isn’t just any kind of love; it’s the special love of husband and wife for each other and their children.”

6. What about benefits? Don’t gay couples and their kids need the benefits and protections of marriage?”

A: “If medical proxies aren’t working, let’s fix that problem. If people need health care, let’s get them health care. Don’t mess with marriage.”

A: “The issue isn’t benefits, it is marriage. Local folks can decide benefits. This is about the meaning of marriage, our most basic social institution for protecting children. “

7. Isn’t divorce the real threat to marriage?

A: “High rates of divorce are one more reason we should be strengthening marriage, not conducting radical social experiments on it.”

8. Are you saying gays cannot be good parents?

A: “Two men might each be a good father, but neither can be a mom. The ideal for children is the love of their own mom and dad. No same-sex couple can provide that.”

9. What about older or infertile couples? If they marry why not same-sex couples?

A: “Every man and woman who marries is capable of giving any child they create (or adopt) a mother and a father. No same-sex couple can do this. It’s apples and oranges.”
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:52 PM   #90
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^That is the most bullshit argument I've ever read in my life. I wrote better persuasive papers in high school. How the fuck does allowing you and Memphis to get married, re-define my future marriage to my future husband, whomever he is.? We'll still both be a male and a female as far as I know. A marriage of a gay or lesbian couple has no more to do with that of a heterosexual couple than that of another hetero couple.
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