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Old 03-11-2006, 09:13 PM   #31
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lmjhitman, female math/science and any special education teachers are highly sought after here. My friends in those disciplines had no problems finding a position. I plan to become certified for special education.
chicago, eh?

do i have to cheer for the blackhawks?
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:15 PM   #32
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chicago, eh?

do i have to cheer for the blackhawks?
Lord no. Nobody cheers for the blackhawks.
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:19 PM   #33
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Actually, the laws are always changing. I am not a special education teacher so I do not know the in's and out's of the most recent law(s) but I do know they are there to ensure students with special needs are given the same educational oppertunities as their peers who do not have an Individual Education Plan or a 504 plan (which covers pregnent teens as well as students who have other extenuating circumstances ie: emotional disorders, physical handicaps) A school for pregnent teens is a great idea but what about other students with special needs? Inclusion is not going away, nor should it. Isolating special education students in a separte school is not the answer.
I know the usual answer in America is to isolate and neglect. It's the "neglect" that brought in the inclusive reasoning.

However, I think with the right mindset, having different schools for people with different needs is a good idea. Treating remedial students as students who need additional attention and different learning methods to overcome their obstacles is a good idea. Treating honors students as those who deserve additional challenge and should be introduced to exciting opportunities is a good idea (after all, we have all this talk about keeping up with Asia and all). Taking students with perennial discipline problems and putting them in a separate and restrictive environment (i.e., NOT automatically lumped with the remedial students who are otherwise well-behaved) with a teaching staff prepared to deal with these kinds of students are a good idea. Mixing everyone in the same classroom, as much of America currently does, is not working.

Like I said, the wealthy in America have all these alternatives at their disposal in the private realm. Why should poor people just suck it up and deal with it?

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Old 03-11-2006, 09:26 PM   #34
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lmjhitman, have you considered Ontario? We've had a teacher shortage for years and female math/science secondary teachers are in very, very high demand.
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Old 03-11-2006, 10:59 PM   #35
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The whole country including wealthy communities will benefit from having their poorer counterparts better educated. Plus, you could do it without actually raising their taxes.
You may not be raising taxes, but if you live in a wealthy community, you would not be able to maintain the level of services if you redistribute the $$$.
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Old 03-11-2006, 11:42 PM   #36
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Have you considered Indiana, martha? We need good teachers desperately and the cost of living is low here...
Two words: snow and tornadoes
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Old 03-11-2006, 11:45 PM   #37
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I think with the right mindset, having different schools for people with different needs is a good idea. Treating remedial students as students who need additional attention and different learning methods to overcome their obstacles is a good idea. Treating honors students as those who deserve additional challenge and should be introduced to exciting opportunities is a good idea (after all, we have all this talk about keeping up with Asia and all). Taking students with perennial discipline problems and putting them in a separate and restrictive environment (i.e., NOT automatically lumped with the remedial students who are otherwise well-behaved) with a teaching staff prepared to deal with these kinds of students are a good idea. Mixing everyone in the same classroom, as much of America currently does, is not working.
See my posts about this in the Exit exam thread. Here in California, we have cookie cutter students. Voc Ed is gone because everyone must take and pass algebra. Those who can't, aren't allowed to graduate. Many drop out. We have a certain set of "standards" and if you can't meet them, you're fucked. They're some of the toughest in the country.
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Old 03-12-2006, 12:33 AM   #38
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Two words: snow and tornadoes
Yeah, well, I wasn't too thrilled about moving out here myself, but it's where I could find a job. It's quite common for there to be hundreds of qualified applicants for an entry-level tenure-track position at any unexciting old public university, so unless you belong to some coveted minority or have an extraordinary publications record, you take what you can get because you're damn lucky to get even that.

Doesn't snow much in southern Indiana though, actually.
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Originally posted by melon
However, I think with the right mindset, having different schools for people with different needs is a good idea. Treating remedial students as students who need additional attention and different learning methods to overcome their obstacles is a good idea. Treating honors students as those who deserve additional challenge and should be introduced to exciting opportunities is a good idea (after all, we have all this talk about keeping up with Asia and all).
At what grade level and using what criteria would we decide which students get tracked into which school, though? GPA alone? Test scores? I would bet the "remedial" schools would de facto wind up being poor students' schools, while the "honors" schools would de facto wind up being the province of middle and upper class students. In other words, it would probably just reinforce the socioeconomic trends associated with the tracking that already exists. Had I switched into a school system like what you describe from the economically and academically poor one I attended K-8, I can't imagine I would have passed an "honors" entry test--on the other hand, my high GPA would've been misleading compared to those of students from wealthier, more academically rigorous schools.
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Old 03-12-2006, 03:01 AM   #39
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You may not be raising taxes, but if you live in a wealthy community, you would not be able to maintain the level of services if you redistribute the $$$.
Its tax $$$, which naturally should be benefiting the whole state or country, not a select community. If the wealthy community really desire's a certain level of services beyond what taxes equally distributed for such services around the state would provide, then they can privately fund a system that would raise the services to the desired level.
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Old 03-12-2006, 05:52 AM   #40
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Its tax $$$, which naturally should be benefiting the whole state or country, not a select community. If the wealthy community really desire's a certain level of services beyond what taxes equally distributed for such services around the state would provide, then they can privately fund a system that would raise the services to the desired level.
Income Tax is tax $$$ raised by the state and federal governement. This money is redistributed and helps fund education but it does not come close to funding it all.

Property Tax is the money the TOWN raises for its services. Education is one of them. A majority of the school budget is funded by TOWN $$$. If you equally distribute the money that is already funding a level of services, you will not be able to afford the level of school system currently in place. The School Budget is the largest operating cost for towns. There is no way you can keep the level of service that you have if you are going to redistribute the $$$. If you increase class sizes, then you have an increased chance that you state scores will decrease. If they decrease, your property value decreases. If that happens your tax base decreases. If that happens, you have less to redistribute.

If you are saying they must PIRVATELY fund a system, you are raising taxes.
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Old 03-12-2006, 11:01 AM   #41
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And if I forgot to say it, I would have been delighted to have had several of the teachers and would-be teachers in this forum.
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Old 03-12-2006, 11:26 AM   #42
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Property Tax is the money the TOWN raises for its services. Education is one of them. A majority of the school budget is funded by TOWN $$$.
I think this is one part of the problem. I know that in my town, we consistently reject every property tax increase mainly because it's already too high.

I think that education funding needs to be more at the state and federal levels, instead of the local levels; because I know for a fact that the pukey little town I grew up in plain does not have the resources to fund the top-level education that all children deserve.

It's also why my parents almost went broke sending me to Catholic schools for 13 years. When I think about this, how can I honestly tow the usual liberal line and say that our public schools are just fine? Because they're not. The one I would have had to attend was atrocious and still is.

But I know...with the Orwellian "war on terror" and the tax cuts for the wealthy, who the fuck cares about education?

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Old 03-12-2006, 11:43 AM   #43
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At what grade level and using what criteria would we decide which students get tracked into which school, though? GPA alone? Test scores? I would bet the "remedial" schools would de facto wind up being poor students' schools, while the "honors" schools would de facto wind up being the province of middle and upper class students. In other words, it would probably just reinforce the socioeconomic trends associated with the tracking that already exists.
Exactly. There is a link between poverty and education. My school has the highest poverty rate in our district (around 69%) and also has the highest number of special education students. (around 34%) The state audited the distict last year and told the district that its schools it did not have enough special education students mainstreamed. We were operating effectivly as a school within a school.

As a result we are now moving towards detracking and co-teaching.

The other thing that bothers me about specialty schools is the stigma that will come with them. Who wants to be known as the kid who went to the "dumb" school? Some students who have IEPs are college bound. How will colleges look at transcripts from these schools? Will they be valued as much as a college prep school? It's doubtful.
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Old 03-12-2006, 11:51 AM   #44
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At what grade level and using what criteria would we decide which students get tracked into which school, though? GPA alone? Test scores? I would bet the "remedial" schools would de facto wind up being poor students' schools, while the "honors" schools would de facto wind up being the province of middle and upper class students. In other words, it would probably just reinforce the socioeconomic trends associated with the tracking that already exists. Had I switched into a school system like what you describe from the economically and academically poor one I attended K-8, I can't imagine I would have passed an "honors" entry test--on the other hand, my high GPA would've been misleading compared to those of students from wealthier, more academically rigorous schools.
Like I said, I know the existing connotation is to "separate and neglect." I think with the proper planning and education of the teachers and administration, we could eliminate the "neglect" portion. And that would also eliminate the concern about cutting off funding.

I don't know. All I'm saying is that throwing everyone into a classroom and expecting everyone to learn isn't working. Perhaps the solution isn't to make them separate schools as much as to ensure separate classes different levels in the same school? Private schools already do this (Honors, regular, remedial for the same subject); so, like I said, the rich don't have to play by the rules like everyone else and they get away with higher caliber education as a result.

The average American child should not be forced to deal with sub-standard education as the result of someone's politically correct definition of "integration." And those who are falling behind in "remedial" levels? The response shouldn't be to shove aside and neglect. In fact, they need MORE attention and education to catch up. That's my philosophy, at least, and private schools certainly make overtures in this direction. If someone's child is being neglected, some pissed off parents will pull out their money and go somewhere else. I guess this is where I think competition in public education like in Belgium would be a great thing for America, because, as it stands, there's no incentive for public schools to be accountable in any way. The realistic threat of children being able to easily pick up and go to a different school might make them think about changing their failures.

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Old 03-12-2006, 12:01 PM   #45
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By the way, I love all these discussions. I find that FYM, in general, is an easy way for me to throw out a lot of unconventional ideas and then refine them based on people disagreeing with me. All this will come in handy if I ever wanted to run for political office...lol.

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