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Old 09-17-2001, 01:56 AM   #16
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nothing much to say i guess........
except thanks melon (((((hugs))))
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Old 09-17-2001, 05:44 PM   #17
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Melon,

Wasn't the results of World War II better than what would have been the results if we had not entered the war, which would have been Hitler ruler of the world basically. It is no secret that when Hitler would have invaded the United States when he was done with Europe and the entrance of the United States was the main thing that stopped him from achieving that first directive. Of course we didn't break free from all troubles after World War II, I don't think that is even possible when dealing with war in any sense, but what would you have rather chosen: Entrance into World War II or not? I know you said it was justifiable and everything but you still make it like it just led onto more problems when it did not, yes, disolve all problems but it did make the world a much better place to live. Isn't that attaining more peace? Something reasonable to hope for when dealing with the violence and bloodshed that all war has to offer?

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Old 09-17-2001, 05:47 PM   #18
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The main point of this post regarding World War II was that it could have been prevented had the WWI victors not insisted on "revenge." While justified, the nature of WWII did lead to more problems, while also solving the problems arising out of WWI.

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Old 09-17-2001, 07:43 PM   #19
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Melon- I really like everything that you have had to say, you are a very intelligent person, and I wish that more Americans had the same levle headedness, and ability to put things in perspective as you. I am always oblivious how at times like this people can forget about part attrocities and actions, is this because they simply do not know or they choose to forget???? Hopefully by what you say and post here you might just enlighten and inform a few more as to the political climates that have contributed to past attrocities in the world........
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Old 09-17-2001, 11:15 PM   #20
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I dream of and pray for world peace; maybe we will attain it one day.

But in the meantime, I would be willing to strike a fist at someone in order to free the slaves in Sudan, or to topple the theocratic rule of the Taliban, or to bring to justice the fools who struck at innocent civilians.

Sometimes you have to use force, which may mean physical violence, to bring about justice.

Osama bin Laden is not against the U.S. for any specific acts of violence we have commited; he is against us because according to his mis-interpreted, fanatical view of the Qu'ran, no one other than Muslims should be allowed in the Arabian peninsula, including Saudi Arabia and parts of Israel. He doesn't want a peaceful settlement between Israeli Jews and Palestinians; he wnats people of the Jewish faith completely OUT of the area; the minority Christian population of Palestinians (who currently side with the Palestinians if they take a side at all) will then be left, which he and his fanatics would then coerce or exterminate. He would likely remove any governements which are friendly to non-Muslims, such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia, and place Taliban-type governments in their place.

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Old 09-18-2001, 12:09 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
The main point of this post regarding World War II was that it could have been prevented had the WWI victors not insisted on "revenge." While justified, the nature of WWII did lead to more problems, while also solving the problems arising out of WWI.

Melon
I agree with OzAurora to a point. Melon, you definitely remember your history and you express your OPINION with great intellect. But, facts are facts and ideologies from the past are just each individuals interpretation of history. YES/NO?

If we had not have done this, this would not have happened. If we would have done this better, the world could be like this.

Could of, would of, should of!

We can't change the past but, yes we can learn from it.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:

I have an Irish friend who also serves in his country's military, in Northern Ireland. Although, he hastens to admit not "in the front line" but nevertheless IN there when it was dirty. He has seen terrorism at first hand and he said, "believe me, you cannot negotiate with the terrorist - it is something against what they think they are doing." He has been car bombed, had mortar shells fired at him, and lost comrades. Two were part of bomb disposal - they died protecting an ordinary person on the street, all the while, the perpetrator of the murder was standing in a bar in the Republic, drinking and laughing with his Contemporary's about how well they did today.
Diplomacy is always the best solution but, in some cases, and especially this one, no amount of diplomacy will work. Diplomacy, in the minds of these extremists, is a gun of the feeble-minded. I applaud your sentiments Melon, as we in the free world, are entitled to Free Speech and Freedom of Thought. The Terrorist does not like that; he/it wants it THEIR WAY OR BLOW THE PLANET UP!

Unfortunately, the best terrorist is a dead one - and I don't care how many "martyrs" are created; martyrs cannot kill again. If America allows terrorism to win in this case, then we can kiss democracy and your basic freedom goodbye.

Thank you for your time,
GO NAVY!

GOD BLESS AMERICA


[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 09-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 09-18-2001).]
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Old 09-18-2001, 01:33 AM   #22
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Hi I didn't want to start a new thread on this; just wanted to show you something I got from U2sound mail group:

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <u2rocks2001us@yahoo.com>
An: <u2sound@yahoogroups.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 17. September 2001 13:28
Betreff: [u2sound] Osama bin Laden......


> ......Is Jesus Christ. Jesus said he would return and he did!
> Everyone pray to him. The Anti-Christ, George Bush is now going to
> start Armageddon just like the bible explained would happen. Please
> everyone.....pray to our saviour Osama bin Laden and ask forgivness
> of your sins.


foray
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Old 09-18-2001, 01:36 AM   #23
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Well done whammy.

I agree with you. Diplomacy will not solve this type of terrorism. I truly believe that these people are religious fanatics who value reason the same way they value innocent life - not at all.

There is no historic could have, should have, monday morning quarterbacking to be done right now. This is not a negotiation over a table, where there is a give and take and a logical argument between reasonable people. We are dealing with barbarians and cowards with nothing to lose except their lives, which is glorious for them when it is for Allah. Welcome to reality.


AJ
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Old 09-18-2001, 02:26 AM   #24
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In reply to foray's post, it would probably be worthwhile to send that to the proper authorities. Couldn't hurt anything.
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Old 09-18-2001, 03:19 AM   #25
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The sad thing about this war is that you cannot WIN it, even though Mr. Bush wants us to believe that. OK, maybe you can get Bin Laden (presuming that he is responsible) and some othe members of the organisation behind this attack. But have you won then????
The members of the organisations already are saints in the eyes of those whgo support them, capturing them will probably only make them marters too, but it won't stop the movement. Also they know that the damage they have inflicted is much larger than the damage the US would inflict to them if they catch those people. You could also retaliate by using even greater methods of terror on them: simple revenge (i.e. turning Kabul into a parking lot). This however would also be a really cruel and stupid thing to do for a few reasons.
As a civilized country you can't just kill numerous of innocent people, it is unjust in every way.
Also, this will only create more hatred against the USA also among more moderate people. You'll lose the goodwill of many people/countries and the anti-US movement will grow much and much larger within the entire islamic region (and also within non-islamic regions/countries)



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Old 09-18-2001, 07:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by whammy:
I agree with OzAurora to a point. Melon, you definitely remember your history and you express your OPINION with great intellect. But, facts are facts and ideologies from the past are just each individuals interpretation of history. YES/NO?
A psychologist once told me that we should omit all of our statement before the word "but," because anything before that is just hiding contempt. Apparently, by what you have written, you disagree with what I wrote? Part of #8 and #9 is my opinion, but the rest is factual.

Quote:
If we had not have done this, this would not have happened. If we would have done this better, the world could be like this.

Could of, would of, should of!


You are quite right. Hindsight is 20/20.

Quote:
We can't change the past but, yes we can learn from it.
Hmm...do you think that that might be the point of my post here? Of course, I'm not naive. We'll never learn.

Quote:
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:
Then call me forever unreasonable.

Quote:
I have an Irish friend who also serves in his country's military, in Northern Ireland. Although, he hastens to admit not "in the front line" but nevertheless IN there when it was dirty. He has seen terrorism at first hand and he said, "believe me, you cannot negotiate with the terrorist - it is something against what they think they are doing." He has been car bombed, had mortar shells fired at him, and lost comrades. Two were part of bomb disposal - they died protecting an ordinary person on the street, all the while, the perpetrator of the murder was standing in a bar in the Republic, drinking and laughing with his Contemporary's about how well they did today.
Well, it is often the case that you can't negotiate with the terrorist, but, what is often the case, the other side is equally headstrong and won't negotiate with the terrorist.

Quote:
Diplomacy is always the best solution but, in some cases, and especially this one, no amount of diplomacy will work. Diplomacy, in the minds of these extremists, is a gun of the feeble-minded. I applaud your sentiments Melon, as we in the free world, are entitled to Free Speech and Freedom of Thought. The Terrorist does not like that; he/it wants it THEIR WAY OR BLOW THE PLANET UP!
Ah yes...I was waiting for this argument. Right on cue...

Quote:
Unfortunately, the best terrorist is a dead one - and I don't care how many "martyrs" are created; martyrs cannot kill again. If America allows terrorism to win in this case, then we can kiss democracy and your basic freedom goodbye.
The best terrorist is one locked up in solitary confinement. That would be the ultimate punishment for bin Laden, who would be denied martyrdom and, hence, his belief that he'll go automatically to heaven for dying in a Holy War. You all underestimate bin Laden. I fear we are playing into his hands even as we speak...

Melon

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Old 09-18-2001, 08:37 AM   #27
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http://www.u2news.com/u2feedback/For...ML/000227.html

Theres that link to the other thread i was telling u about melon...

Good points here once again.
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Old 09-18-2001, 09:09 AM   #28
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The problem with lcoking up "The Osama" is that his followers will take hostages and implore threats around the world until he is released. This has been done with several of the airplane hijackings in the 80s. Otherwise, I would agree, because that would give me the opportunity to go visit him in prison and make faces at him and call him dirty names.

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Old 09-18-2001, 04:17 PM   #29
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[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
:-:George Bernard Shaw:-:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then call me forever unreasonable

Melon
[/QUOTE]

You're all right Melon! I disagree with you 180 like the Sun versus Pluto but, you're all right.

I can't help the way I feel and I've interpreted the facts the way I see them.

I'm sorry if I sound like a selfish American but, why shouldn't my kids be able to have the lifestyle me and their grandparents had when we were kids.

I think, it's all about Freedom, the security of this nation, and a terrorist free planet. To do that we need to exterminate first and apologize later.

Sacrifices of a few for the greater good of the rest of the world.

I know you don't like the sound of that Melon but, I guess when push comes to shove, I'm a Red-meat-eating shoot-first ask questions later kind of guy(with a little education)!

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[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 09-18-2001).]
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