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Old 01-17-2005, 09:39 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


I STILL haven't seen a pro-death-penalty scriptural justification.

Just out of curiousity, why do you suppose most major Christian religious factions are opposed ot it ?

Specifically, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal. Is their scriptural interpretation wrong ?
Scripture does not specifically condem the death penalty and in many places either calls for it or acknowledges it as a penalty for murder. I gave you one and there are plenty of others.

As for why certain denominations take certain stances, take a look at the politics that drive these decisions and you will find your answer.

There are groups within all major denominations that are questioning some of the basic tenents of Christianity. They may speak loudly, but it doesn't make them right.
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Old 01-17-2005, 09:49 AM   #107
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


They may speak loudly, but it doesn't make them right.
Amazing! I think the same thing about many Christians (on many, many subjects).
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:10 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Scripture does not specifically condem the death penalty and in many places either calls for it or acknowledges it as a penalty for murder. I gave you one and there are plenty of others.

You said "live by the sword.....", that was an out-of-context quote as it pertains to death penalty, it doesn't. If there are more, certainly I'd be interested in them.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader



As for why certain denominations take certain stances, take a look at the politics that drive these decisions and you will find your answer.


I also have to believe they have done a lot more scriptural homework than you or I.

Using your logic, Falwell and Robertson are just politically-based homophobes.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

There are groups within all major denominations that are questioning some of the basic tenents of Christianity. They may speak loudly, but it doesn't make them right.
My, and millions of other Christians' stance on the Robertson/Dobsons/Falwells of the world exactly.
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:13 AM   #109
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


This is an oversimplification of Scripture. The OT is there for a reason and it applies to us today. Read through Romans (chapters 5 and 6) for more specific language on the application of the OT today.

Face it. It is not a matter if the OT really applies and in what degree. The Bible is viewed as everything from God's inherent Word, to a collection of good stories, to an outright fabrication to be disregarded. Quote the OT and you are dispised. Quote an epistle, and you are disregarded as only espousing the view of a man.
Have you ever read Leviticus and it's opinion of a woman in her menstrual cycle ?

Are we to take all OT at it's writen word ? (we could really have a field day with this one!)
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:27 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Scripture does not specifically condem the death penalty and in many places either calls for it or acknowledges it as a penalty for murder. I gave you one and there are plenty of others.

As for why certain denominations take certain stances, take a look at the politics that drive these decisions and you will find your answer.

There are groups within all major denominations that are questioning some of the basic tenents of Christianity. They may speak loudly, but it doesn't make them right.
Found elsewhere,

An open letter to Christian scholars:

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle,
simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an
abomination.
End of debate.

However, do you have any advice regarding these other specific Bible laws
and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates
a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price
for her?

She's 18 and starting University. Will the slave buyer continue to
pay for her education by law?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is,
how do I tell?

I have tried asking, but most women take offense. I'm sure you
have found a way to do this and can share it with me.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to
kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does
my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would
contact lenses help?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear hemp gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made
of
two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the
trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16)
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do
with
people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:31 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


As for why certain denominations take certain stances, take a look at the politics that drive these decisions and you will find your answer.

What politics, do you suppose, drive these decisions?
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:33 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


Have you ever read Leviticus and it's opinion of a woman in her menstrual cycle ?

Are we to take all OT at it's writen word ? (we could really have a field day with this one!)
You could have a field day if you took a simplistic view of the OT. Your subsequent post (the "open letter" to scholars) takes an infantile approach to Biblical interpretation.

In essense, it says: "I can find things that don't make sense to me, so I can dismiss anything I want in Scripture."
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:37 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


You could have a field day if you took a simplistic view of the OT. Your subsequent post (the "open letter" to scholars) takes an infantile approach to Biblical interpretation.

In essense, it says: "I can find things that don't make sense to me, so I can dismiss anything I want in Scripture."
Do they make sense to you ?

So it's OK to take one verse and use it to fuel right-wing hate mongering towards homosexuals (whom Jesus would embrace in a heartbeat), but when other verses are pointed then it's "over simplifying", or it's "politics", or it's "infantile" ?

Go ahead, educate me on those other verses, I have an open mind. Rather than just dismiss everything you don't agree with as infantile over-simplified politics, why don't you take a few minutes and help us out ?
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:43 AM   #114
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Instead of turning this into yet another Bible debate, let's look at Capital Punishment from the secular point of view.

It has been suggested that Capital Punishment it murder. This is incorrect.

Murder is the unjustifyable killing of another. There are situations where we permit one person to kill another (an I too will avoid the abortion hypocricy on this point). There are defenses to murder.

Capital Punishment is a penalty undertaken after significant due process. The due process together with the limited circumstances in which a death penalty can be given as punishment (it is not for all murder) establishes the requisite justification for the act.
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:45 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino
Go ahead, educate me on those other verses, I have an open mind. Rather than just dismiss everything you don't agree with as infantile over-simplified politics, why don't you take a few minutes and help us out ?
If you are truely interested, we can look at each one of those verses you've quoted (or cut and pasted from another source).

Let me know and we can tackle each one separately. I would be happy to PM you if you prefer.
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:45 AM   #116
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No, I kind of want to see cardosino's question about the other OT verses answered.
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:47 AM   #117
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Instead of turning this into yet another Bible debate, let's look at Capital Punishment from the secular point of view.
OK, looks like you just lost an opportunity to set the record straight about why the OT is NOT flawed, that's what happens when you get called on cherry-picking out-of-context verses to buttress a pre-existing opinion I guess.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

It has been suggested that Capital Punishment it murder. This is incorrect.

In your opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Murder is the unjustifyable killing of another. There are situations where we permit one person to kill another (an I too will avoid the abortion hypocricy on this point). There are defenses to murder.

Capital Punishment is a penalty undertaken after significant due process. The due process together with the limited circumstances in which a death penalty can be given as punishment (it is not for all murder) establishes the requisite justification for the act.
Capital punishment is unjustified.

The due process is flawed, many people executed have been found innocent years after thei rexecution.

Unless you can come up with a foolproof due process system, that argument is severely flawed.

Also, it is NOT a deterrent, so basically you are saying we have an ineffective institutionalized method of killing innocent people. Great..........
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:48 AM   #118
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
No, I kind of want to see cardosino's question about the other OT verses answered.
me too......

:-)
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:48 AM   #119
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What politics, do you suppose, drive these decisions?
I think it would be hard to slap a simple label on it for an answer.

In just the last year, I've gained significant visibility to the workings of the Presbyterian denomination.

Frankly, the amount of time spent on resolutions or commentary on political issues (by both sides) is frightening and disappointing.
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Old 01-17-2005, 10:51 AM   #120
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Well, then, give us the best answer you can as to why these denominations, for "political reasons" that supersede commitment to Scripture, would publically oppose the death penalty.
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