BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Yes, I'll agree with this but the majority of classical pieces also have more than one alternative set of lyrics.paxetaurora said:
Christmas Music!
- Thread starter MadelynIris
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
it's all about choice. Hindus who want to be choir nerds know that they will probably encounter religious music in their after school clubs -- just like if they were to sing broadway songs, there might be offensive lyrics (stuff from Les Mis or whatever). the difference, here, is choice. you know this signing up, and you can drop the activity if you choose. what isn't okay, as i'll say again, is for a mandatory music class (maybe they don't have these anymore, but i had them in elementary school) to sing explicitly worshipful music.
that's all i have to say about that.
signing out of this tread. it has been fun.
that's all i have to say about that.
signing out of this tread. it has been fun.
OP
OP
MadelynIris
Refugee
Music history is one of those things we read about on the toilet in my house. I'm still not a pro musicologist, but I'm sure my wife could hold her own on a classical music category on Jeopardy.
Seriously, maybe it's time to abolish classical choral programs at public schools.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
uh, that should be thread.
bye!
bye!
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
MadelynIris said:
There's a big difference in trying to get a Jewish, Hindu, Muslem, etc child celebrate Christmas and learning classical music.
Teaching classical music most of the time is about music theory, structure, etc. It's like learning history or math. In history we learned about other religions. Also you keep forgetting choir is an elective.
Look I know where you are getting at. The slope can be dangerous. I just don't see the need for insisting my child celebrate any religious holiday at school. They celebrate it at my home, my church, their grandparents home...that's where it should be celebrated anyways.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
I'm not hellbent on forcing anything on anyone
The nativity is never/never will be "commerce" to me, but it really doesn't bother me if people don't want it displayed in a public place, I understand that completely.
Sorry I'm so stupid
The nativity is never/never will be "commerce" to me, but it really doesn't bother me if people don't want it displayed in a public place, I understand that completely.
Sorry I'm so stupid
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
MrsSpringsteen said:I'm not hellbent on forcing anything on anyone
The nativity is never/never will be "commerce" to me, but it really doesn't bother me if people don't want it displayed in a public place, I understand that completely.
Sorry I'm so stupid
When I said commerce I meant that nativity scenes are not historically accurate, most theologians agree that the visitors (three wise men and shepards) were not there all at the same time and some didn't even arrive until years after the birth.
I find plastic internally lit wisemen to be tacky and just another way someone out there makes a buck. Maybe that's just me.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
BonoVoxSupastar said:
I think you would agree that worship comes from the heart, not from the mouth.
Kids singing traditional Christmas carols are not engaged in worship.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nbcrusader said:
Ah, the thin line.
Yes I'll agree it comes from the heart, but then you can also say that 1000s of churches across the nation are no longer places of worship for they are only going through the motions of memorized lines.
But if they are just words...then you'll have no problem with your child reading or listening to literature or music that goes against what you believe.
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nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
BonoVoxSupastar said:
I would say that in nearly every church, there are people who are only going through the motions.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
This was one of the factors that led us to send our son to public school. We know he hears many things that are inconsistent with a Christ-centered world view. Those are teaching opportunities for us.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
I love nativity scenes. The first one was supposedly made by St. Francis of Assisi. Maybe they are not "historically accurate" but neither are some of the most powerful spiritual symbols on the planet. It's a matter of the heart, not something that's supposed to be "accurate". I'm a trained historian but sometimes this stuff is completely irrelevant.
stammer476
Refugee
What ironic to me is that . . .
. . . there's a voice of people that want to take all Christian thought and influence out of the public forum.
. . . there's a voice of people that are complaining about how Christians are taking a stronger stand on politics and pushing for their religious causes.
Anyone see a connection? You can only antagonize a group of people for so long until they respond. If you're tired of Christian politics, fundamentalist groups, and the extreme right wing agenda, maybe you should take a step back and look at their perspective. You may be creating your own problem.
. . . there's a voice of people that want to take all Christian thought and influence out of the public forum.
. . . there's a voice of people that are complaining about how Christians are taking a stronger stand on politics and pushing for their religious causes.
Anyone see a connection? You can only antagonize a group of people for so long until they respond. If you're tired of Christian politics, fundamentalist groups, and the extreme right wing agenda, maybe you should take a step back and look at their perspective. You may be creating your own problem.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
stammer476 said:
Um that can go the other way around too.
stammer476
Refugee
Definately. And I think that is what's causing such a divide in this country. As long as both sides want to "stake their ground," the problems will continue.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
and, hence, we have separation of church and state. we keep the endorsement of jesus out of public schools and do things like moments of silence instead of teacher-led prayers.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Well good that should be settled.
stammer476
Refugee
Irvine511 said:
I thought you were checked out.
You're right, Irvine, but I think taking religiously inspired instrumental music out of school is stepping over this line. Just as some Christians are provoking other groups by trying to force their agenda (i.e. burning gay books), this school ruling is provoking Christians by stepping over a reasonable understanding of a state endorsement of religion.
All I'm saying is, if you don't want to fight the monster, don't create one.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
stammer476 said:
I thought you were checked out.
You're right, Irvine, but I think taking religiously inspired instrumental music out of school is stepping over this line. Just as some Christians are provoking other groups by trying to force their agenda (i.e. burning gay books), this school ruling is provoking Christians by stepping over a reasonable understanding of a state endorsement of religion.
All I'm saying is, if you don't want to fight the monster, don't create one.
Has anyone said they are taking any kind of instumental music out of school?
I don't understand the need of conservative Christians to have their religion advertised or taking place everywhere they go. Are you scared the few hours your child is at school and there are no carols or ten commandments posted that your child will forget? What is the need? There are other religions in this country face that fact. These religions may not have a problem with gay marriage, they may not celebrate Christmas, and they may not want to be reminded that they are standing under the rule of a Christian judge when they are Muslim. Why is this so hard for people to grasp? You are not going to lose your indentity, you are not going to lose your religion. In fact your faith will be a lot stronger than it is now if it wasn't so commercialized and forced upon the public.
Somedays I wish we could go back to the days when the bracelets didn't exist, people didn't need a plastic fish on their car to advertise their faith, and people knew who you were because it shined through your inner core. Maybe we should go back to the days of drawing an arch in the sand, at least then people knew it was real, it wasn't about advertising and forcing your views.
stammer476
Refugee
BonoVoxSupastar said:
From the original post in this thread:
stammer476
Refugee
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Please tell me this is a joke. The early Christians had to write the fish in the sand for fear that they would be killed. Now THAT statement is truly offensive. Instrumental music is not.
Anyone wishing to entirely separate all aspects of Governement and public life from religion of any kind, feel free to donate all of your US dollar bills to any AIDS charity.
Or, don't be so hypocritical, taking a stand on separation of Church and State is great unless it impacts you financially ?
Or, don't be so hypocritical, taking a stand on separation of Church and State is great unless it impacts you financially ?
stammer476
Refugee
cardosino said:
I'm sorry, but I'm missing your point completely.
stammer476
Refugee
cardosino said:
It's early. I'm a little slow in the mornings.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Irvine511 said:
I don't believe schools are allowed to conduct moments of silence either.
Someone might think about Jesus
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Bracelets and plastic fish merely replaced crosses, crucifixes and carrying one's bible. There have always been external (material) evidences of the inner change.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
BonoVoxSupastar said:
My problem with this is that it's another "Golden Age" concept. I don't believe any Golden Ages existed. When they drew arches in the sand, they could get killed for being Christians. That's hardly a Golden Age. There wasn't one. There's always been crud going on, inside the church, outside of it, because it's always been based on imperfect human beings.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
nbcrusader said:
I don't believe schools are allowed to conduct moments of silence either.
Someone might think about Jesus
hmmmmmmmm ... i remember moments of silence through junior high, which ended for me in 1992. i dunno if they're still there or not.
i hear your joke, but i think the moment of silence was designed for those who want to think about Jesus.
yes, i know i said i was checked out, but the blue crack does strange things to me ...
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
Honestly sometimes during the moment of silence, I used to think about the boys in school that I liked
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
cardosino said:
God is different from Jesus.
God is highly universal; Jesus is the heart of Christianity.
Separation of Church and State is why you don't see "Praise Jesus" on our dollar bills.
belief in God, however, *is* important to the establishment of this country (just go to the eerily beautiful Jefferson Memorial in DC and you'll see what I mean). it was the idea of all men being created equally that allowed us to move away from a system of landed gentry and aristocrats and plant seeds of democracy. (forgive my simplistic sentences, but that's the gist of it).
however, contingent upon that, since we are all created equal by God -- meaning Jews, Muslims, Chrstians, and Hindus -- we cannot force our specific interpretations and beliefs about God upon others. we universally acknoweldge his existence as a nation, but embedded within that is the right to not acknowledge (our fellow atheist Americans ... God created them, too, didn't he?) or to acknowledge in an entirely different way. so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
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