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Old 02-08-2002, 05:52 PM   #1
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The charachter used by the Cleveland Indians Baseball team:


Is it right to use this charachter for a sports team, or is it degrading to Native Americans?

One of the local daily newspapers in my city will not use the term "indians," "Redskins" or "Braves" in its pages. Instead, it will refer to these teams as "The Washington Football team" or the "Atlanta Baseball Team."

Your opinions....
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Old 02-08-2002, 06:03 PM   #2
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Well, would it be okay to have caricatures of black people as mascots? Why not use the old black face with fat white lips? Or how about white Southerners? Yes, let's have the Detroit Yokels, where the maskot's name is Cletus, an unemployed drunk from Alabama who regularly beats his wife, Brandine. Would that be okay then?

I believe in the Golden Rule to treat others as I would want to be treated. As such, I do think it is more than offensive that we have sports teams modeled around racial stereotypes. You certainly wouldn't like it if it were your race being profiled.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 02-08-2002, 07:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Well, would it be okay to have caricatures of black people as mascots? Why not use the old black face with fat white lips? Or how about white Southerners? Yes, let's have the Detroit Yokels, where the maskot's name is Cletus, an unemployed drunk from Alabama who regularly beats his wife, Brandine. Would that be okay then?

I believe in the Golden Rule to treat others as I would want to be treated. As such, I do think it is more than offensive that we have sports teams modeled around racial stereotypes. You certainly wouldn't like it if it were your race being profiled.

Melon

Funny how no one complains about Notre Dame...the "fighting irish" and all. I guess if you are mocking someone who is white it seems to be okay.
The are trying to get rid of my school's symbol. It is Native American. It'll never happen though.
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Old 02-08-2002, 07:34 PM   #4
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As an American of Scandanavian descent, I'm infuriated and enraged by the Minnesota Vikings. Because a football team has chosen to identify themselves with Danish and Norwegian barbarians who plundered, raped and pillaged the rest of Europe, today I live in shame because I know when ever someone thinks of the Minnesota Vikings they associate all those things done hundreds of years ago with people like me in America today. Oh how it sucks to have Swedish and Norwegian blood.

Oh and Melon, I do agree with you about the Golden Rule, and I would really have no problem if Native Americans took a vote and decided they wanted all names changed, especially the Redskins, that one is definitely over the top, but the fact that everyone in America is a victim is simply sickening to me. Now people are sueing fast food companies because their food is unhealthy! Man if the food is bad for you, don't eat it! In a free market society that eventually puts the places out of business. I guess its more self-serving to sue and make some money for yourself along the way!
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Old 02-08-2002, 07:47 PM   #5
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Well, I can understand your opinion, ocu2fan, but a lot of American Indians have registered their disgust for it.

A lot has to do with connotation too. Notice how some African Americans walk around calling each other "nigger" and "bitch." Now what if a white man or an Asian man went up and said, "What's up, nigger?", the connotation would be taken as insulting.

Whether you like it or not, sports team management is seen as a white institution. If the American Indians themselves created teams with "Redskins" and "Indians," it would likely be seen as a pride thing. If Indians created teams like the "Caucasians" or the "Whiteskins," and started parading around in every known stereotype, people would start being offended. This isn't a matter of petty fast food lawsuits (I think that is ridiculous too), but a matter of mutual respect for each other. We talk about post 9/11 unity, and I'm all for that; but if we think it can come without any sacrifice, then it will be nothing but fantasy. One cannot have their cake and eat it too.

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Old 02-08-2002, 07:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:

A lot has to do with connotation too. Notice how some African Americans walk around calling each other "nigger" and "bitch." Now what if a white man or an Asian man went up and said, "What's up, nigger?", the connotation would be taken as insulting.

Whether you like it or not, sports team management is seen as a white institution. If the American Indians themselves created teams with "Redskins" and "Indians," it would likely be seen as a pride thing. If Indians created teams like the "Caucasians" or the "Whiteskins," and started parading around in every known stereotype, people would start being offended. This isn't a matter of petty fast food lawsuits (I think that is ridiculous too), but a matter of mutual respect for each other. We talk about post 9/11 unity, and I'm all for that; but if we think it can come without any sacrifice, then it will be nothing but fantasy. One cannot have their cake and eat it too.

Excellent points Melon. You gave me a much needed different perspective, I have been feeling alot conservative this afternoon. Like I said, I really wouldn't mind if they changed the names of the Redskins or the others but I personally see the Chiefs and the Braves as complimentary, then again I'm not a Native American Indian, well actually I am, but very, very distantly, as I also am black. (I truly am a global mutt.)
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Old 02-09-2002, 07:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
My thought is this:

* The Irish don't complain about the Notre Dame Fighting Irish or the Boston Celtics.

* Catholics do not complain about the New Orleans Saints.

* Wiccan do not complain about the Orlando Magic or Washington Wizards.

* There is very little outrage about Vikings, Pirates, or Bucaneers - even though, honestly, they behaved much the way present day terrorists behave.

* And few, if any, complain about the 49ers (miners), Steelers, Cowboys, or Packers - names that refer to industries that are VERY politically incorrect.

Is the Indian as a mascot wrong, then? Maybe.

BUT those groups that harp on this show that they have no sense of humor (compared to the Irish, the Catholics, etc.) and I believe they could be harnessing their resources to champion causes that are much more important - such as legal equality, etc.
Sense of humor? Yikes!

I agree that effort should be put into resources to important causes like legal equality....but back to the topic of this thread.

Redskins and Braves are names caucasians dubbed Native Americans, not something they came up with themsleves. Not something to be proud of.

Bubba, would you be offended if Auburn had a nickname like the buck-toothed hillbillies?
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Old 02-10-2002, 03:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by zonelistener:
Is it right to use this charachter for a sports team, or is it degrading to Native Americans?
My thought is this:

* The Irish don't complain about the Notre Dame Fighting Irish or the Boston Celtics.

* Catholics do not complain about the New Orleans Saints.

* Wiccan do not complain about the Orlando Magic or Washington Wizards.

* There is very little outrage about Vikings, Pirates, or Bucaneers - even though, honestly, they behaved much the way present day terrorists behave.

* And few, if any, complain about the 49ers (miners), Steelers, Cowboys, or Packers - names that refer to industries that are VERY politically incorrect.

Is the Indian as a mascot wrong, then? Maybe.

BUT those groups that harp on this show that they have no sense of humor (compared to the Irish, the Catholics, etc.) and I believe they could be harnessing their resources to champion causes that are much more important - such as legal equality, etc.
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Old 02-10-2002, 08:45 AM   #9
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"buck-toothed hillbilly"?

Pardon me for asking, but what the fuck?

This isn't a realistic or even apropos counter-example, and the only purpose it serves is to insult me.
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Old 02-10-2002, 12:03 PM   #10
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oh lighten up people, take a step back and let other people make fools of themselves...

political correctness i think is way to extreme. we force others to watch what they say or how they say what they say, when they dont really mean anything offensive because they're innocent or ignorant enough to not know that it can be offensive or perhaps they know but they make money off it anyway lol.... but the point is
people vote with their wallet, and if you dont like it, dont watch their baseball team or dont root for them... let others decide on their own free will without forcing the management of the team to change because we dont like what they named their team.

its like if u dont like what u see on tv, turn the station or turn it off... and dont support it, but why force them alter their choice of words and cartoon?
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Old 02-10-2002, 12:34 PM   #11
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Well said, erper.
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Old 02-10-2002, 01:38 PM   #12
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I have to agree with AchtungBubba and erper on this one. While there was a time that "Redskin" was a very offensive term, today I promise you there aren't too many people out there who think of it as much more than a football team. A football team with a very long history of being the Redskins.

For whatever it's worth (likely not much to the PC crowd who fights for this), the Indians were named after Louis Sockalexis. A tribute, not a slam.
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Old 02-10-2002, 01:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
"buck-toothed hillbilly"?
Pardon me for asking, but what the fuck?
This isn't a realistic or even apropos counter-example, and the only purpose it serves is to insult me.
Are you fucking kidding me? You think the mascot used as the Cleveland Indian:



is a "realistic" interpretation of the present-day American Indian? I was unaware that they are the color of a tomato, or that they walk around with a feather poking out of their skulls, or that they all grin like a maniacal Cheshire cat. Zonelistener's analogy is perfectly "apropos": this idea of the "Redskin" is just as accurate as my picture of you as a buck-toothed hillbilly guffawing as you screw your two cousins. Offended? You should be.


[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 02-10-2002).]
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Old 02-10-2002, 04:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by mug222:
Are you fucking kidding me? You think the mascot used as the Cleveland Indian is a "realistic" interpretation of the present-day American Indian? I was unaware that they are the color of a tomato, or that they walk around with a feather poking out of their skulls, or that they all grin like a maniacal Cheshire cat. Zonelistener's analogy is perfectly "apropos": this idea of the "Redskin" is just as accurate as my picture of you as a buck-toothed hillbilly guffawing as you screw your two cousins. Offended? You should be.
No, not realistic as in "that's what Native Americans look like", but realistic as in "that's a realistic name for a sports team".

As bad as "Magic" is for a team name, even when it was first introduced, it seemed somewhere within the realm of reality. "Buck-toothed hillbillies" do not.

Hence, it's not a good example.

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 02-10-2002).]
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Old 02-10-2002, 04:18 PM   #15
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I think you've reduced the discussion into one about semantics when you felt your back against the wall.
But I'll play along. Here's some sample sportnames I think would be great fun.

The Little Rock Hicks
The Auburn Incestuous Deviants
The Jefferson City Rednecks
The Gainesville Yokels
The Austin Hillbillys/Hillrods
The Mobile Trailor Folk
The Montgomery Poor White Trash
The Nashville Rubes




[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 02-10-2002).]
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