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Old 03-16-2005, 02:47 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Step out of your box sometime and see how other people live.

this is where, in my opinion, most socially conservative views come from.

generally speaking, there's an assumed right way and a wrong way. and this makes me insane. there is no one way to be human, to be a father, to be a lover, to be a U2 fan. we all create our own meanings, our own definitions ... there is nothing more dangerous than inherited "wisdom."
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:00 PM   #62
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It seems some people will never deem the issue settled, Irvine, no matter how many LOGICAL arguments are presented (and decisions made by state supreme courts, among others) regarding the legal rights for same sex marriages, while there have been ZERO logical arguments made against such a right being legalized.

What will it take?

Time (and leadership), i think, especially in the States.
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:11 PM   #63
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Can someone tell me why and how Biblical directives have anything to do with laws here in the United States?
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:15 PM   #64
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Originally posted by nathan1977


I think it is critical that children be given the best place possible to live, develop and grow. You yourself admit that a healthy marriage is "probably" the ideal place to raise children. What happened to promoting the ideal, instead of settling for something less than that?

Won't somebody please stop thinking of the chlidren?


I love how children and reproduction are all these people have for their points.


Oh, and the Bible. Which, like I just said, shouldn't have anything to do with secular laws in a secular country.
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Old 03-16-2005, 04:23 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judah


What will it take?

Time (and leadership), i think, especially in the States.
And getting rid of biggots.
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:09 AM   #66
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I guess we can assume since no one's come to defend these last few ridiculous posts that this debate is over.

Now if we could just get the truth into the White House...
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:23 AM   #67
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heres the thing that I dont understand.
I know this is going to make me a biggot and a racist or whatever but here goes
If two men or two women want to be together then I really have nothing to say about that. Its a sin just like any other sin we engage in during our lives. Hell, my mom is a lesbian and i still love her so Im not coming down on gays.
What my gripe is, is that I dont know why gays want to have a christian ordained thing like marriage made available to them if its against christian principles. How could a christian minister go ahead and marry two people if it goes against what he believes. Why should he be forced to do that, or risk being sued or whatever if he doesnt marry the couple?
If gays want to get married then do it with a justice of the peace or something, but dont try and force their opinions or beliefs on another person. Its the same as a christian trying to convince a gay that theyre wrong.
I dont know if Im making any sense......
But why would a gay who isnt a christian want to have a christian ceremony woven into their lives?
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:32 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl

Its a sin just like any other sin we engage in during our lives.
You know this for sure? Well this has been debated at length in here and to be honest no one has shown me proof, but this is not the thread for it.

Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl

If gays want to get married then do it with a justice of the peace or something, but dont try and force their opinions or beliefs on another person. Its the same as a christian trying to convince a gay that theyre wrong.
I dont know if Im making any sense......
First of all they can't get married in a justice of peace. Secondly marriage is not only a Christian institution.
Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl

But why would a gay who isnt a christian want to have a christian ceremony woven into their lives?
What about homosexuals who are Christian?
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:40 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
If two men or two women want to be together then I really have nothing to say about that. Its a sin just like any other sin we engage in during our lives.
Like the sin of being heterosexual? I fucking hate this argument.

Quote:
What my gripe is, is that I dont know why gays want to have a christian ordained thing like marriage made available to them if its against christian principles. How could a christian minister go ahead and marry two people if it goes against what he believes.
First off, no one is trying to force ministers to marry same-sex couples. They are not forced to in the European countries that have same-sex marriage, and they are not forced to in Canada. This argument, as far as I'm concerned, is moot from the start.

Secondly, there *are* Christian denominations that support same-sex marriage. There is the United Church of Christ in Canada and the U.S. The Episcopal Church in New England definitely does (although other regions may not agree). Unitarian Universalists, while not exclusively Christian (they are open to Christians and non-Christians alike, according to their very open theology), are overwhelmingly for same-sex marriage.

Additionally, some conservative Jews (their interpretation of the Talmud voids most of the Old Testament and supports the idea that sin must be a conscious choice; hence, something you can't choose like sexuality is a not a sin) and many reform Jews support it as well. This also does not include the various dissidents within established religions that have come out against same-sex marriage.

And, whether you know it or not, there are many who see no problem with the idea of gay Christians and gay marriage. Since we oh-so-technically speaking have "separation of church and state," I see no reason why same-sex marriage must be legally prohibited. This whole argument has been a religious argument, and religions that attempt to create a secular argument against it generally look like a bunch of stupid bigots.

Melon
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Old 03-17-2005, 10:05 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
heres the thing that I dont understand.
I know this is going to make me a biggot and a racist or whatever but here goes
If two men or two women want to be together then I really have nothing to say about that. Its a sin just like any other sin we engage in during our lives. Hell, my mom is a lesbian and i still love her so Im not coming down on gays.
What my gripe is, is that I dont know why gays want to have a christian ordained thing like marriage made available to them if its against christian principles. How could a christian minister go ahead and marry two people if it goes against what he believes. Why should he be forced to do that, or risk being sued or whatever if he doesnt marry the couple?
If gays want to get married then do it with a justice of the peace or something, but dont try and force their opinions or beliefs on another person. Its the same as a christian trying to convince a gay that theyre wrong.
I dont know if Im making any sense......
But why would a gay who isnt a christian want to have a christian ceremony woven into their lives?
I'm not going to even bother for Melon and BVS have already said it all.
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Old 03-17-2005, 10:31 AM   #71
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I really do feel like a minority in here. I dont particularly like being bashed on for having different beliefs than most others around this part of the forum. I know that nobody here is open to other peoples opinions if they dont match up with their own, thats just a fact.
People come in here to argue for what they believe and shun the rest.

I have no problem with homosexuals in the church. In fact, I would rather see them in church (if they want to be that is) than looking in from the outside and learning to hate christians. Its the other way around as well. If they were incorporated into churches more then children would probably be less afraid of them and less likely to hate.......i think im done talking now
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Old 03-17-2005, 11:06 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
I really do feel like a minority in here. I dont particularly like being bashed on for having different beliefs than most others around this part of the forum. I know that nobody here is open to other peoples opinions if they dont match up with their own, thats just a fact.
People come in here to argue for what they believe and shun the rest.

I have no problem with homosexuals in the church. In fact, I would rather see them in church (if they want to be that is) than looking in from the outside and learning to hate christians. Its the other way around as well. If they were incorporated into churches more then children would probably be less afraid of them and less likely to hate.......i think im done talking now
Well, I'll put it this way. When you come in and one of your first sentences asserts that being gay is automatically a sin like stealing candy, you're not going to win bonus points.

But I do appreciate your comments. I lament that this subject is as polarizing at it is, so fuses are short all around. It's nothing personal, and all that matters, really, is how you treat people outside of this forum. I'm very nice to the conservative and fundamentalist Christians I meet in the real world. I like individuals. It's people I hate.

Melon
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Old 03-17-2005, 01:03 PM   #73
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it's interesting ... while this is a very personal topic for me, i need to stress that what is being bandied about here are IDEAS and ARGUMENTS. we do not bash people, we do not insult people, we do not call people stupid. there are no people in FYM, we only have made-up names and posited arguments that are often typed out late at night, or at work, or whatever. people need to stop taking comments personally and go after the argument -- if you can't stand to have an argument or opinion challenged, then you are running a risk when you post something in a thread about a heated topic. but i want arguments, i want disagreements, i want to be challenged -- because it makes me think.

i also think it's true, though, that when discussing homosexuality, you are getting at something that's at the very core of how someone lives their life. to even have an "opinion" or "belief" on homosexuality misses the point in the eyes of a gay person -- can you have an "opinion" or "belief" on heterosexuality?

so ... anyway, just some thoughts. though i never got the chance to respond, i did appreciate Speedracer mixing things up a bit, no matter how much i disagreed with him.

in fact, my original post in this thread was intended to be provocative and inflammatory -- i did want to start another debate after the CA court ruling. obviously, the issue is not settled, even though i personally think it should be (and, it actually is legally ... it will just take time for it to be settled culturally).
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Old 03-17-2005, 01:07 PM   #74
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and just one more thing ... there's a difference between having an opinion and an argument. we have opinions on ice cream flavors, we can have arguments about gay marriage.

it drives me crazy when someone says something about homosexuality being a sin, or whatever (and not that this has happened in this particular thread, i mean this in general) and when that statement is challenged, the response is "you're attacking me for my beliefs/opinions!"

well, yes. i'm not attacking your preference for chocolate; i'm attacking the (in my view) irrational position that homosexuality is a sin, or whatever.

sorry. just wanted to get all that off my chest.
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Old 03-17-2005, 01:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and just one more thing ... there's a difference between having an opinion and an argument. we have opinions on ice cream flavors, we can have arguments about gay marriage.

it drives me crazy when someone says something about homosexuality being a sin, or whatever (and not that this has happened in this particular thread, i mean this in general) and when that statement is challenged, the response is "you're attacking me for my beliefs/opinions!"

well, yes. i'm not attacking your preference for chocolate; i'm attacking the (in my view) irrational position that homosexuality is a sin, or whatever.

sorry. just wanted to get all that off my chest.
Irvine,
You're probably one of the most astute intellectually on this board. It's why I post in FYM every once in a while, though usually far less than I'd like since most of the posts aren't as polite or intellectually rigorous as yours. There are a lot of attacks that take place, and part of the reason for my silence since posting is because I didn't appreciate feeling arbitrarily slammed.

It's hard to know how to post here, especially when there are people who seem quite interested in making arbitrary judgment calls about someone else, which usually serves no purpose other than to justify their own anger or position or whatever. (Everyone who slammed my thoughts about adoption assumed I was arrogant -- which is a shame, since my sister, my cousin, my aunt, and several close friends have struggled with not being able to conceive, and for them the adoption process -- while ultimately rewarding -- has been one not without pain. I have wept with them and listened to them articulate how THEY feel. My wife and I also thought we couldn't conceive for a time. But people were happy instead to start throwing around accusatory language and labels like "bigot," at which point I checked out.)

I knew that posting the Globe article was potentially inflammatory, given the goodwill extended for the previous three pages to the whole topic of gay marriage, but the (wildly liberal) school I graduated from at least made overtures towards the importance of dialogue -- and the Globe article seemed pertinent, though certainly coming from the opposing position. Everyone has ideologies and values, and usually they come from deep-seated places, no matter who you are -- and it's a mistake to just write them off. (I'm not saying you did -- you at least responded to the article -- but others were a bit more mean-spirited.)

And I do think it's possible to have an argument without resorting to attacks...another reason why I chose not to post anymore (and why I'm not using this post to reassert more views).

Not sure if I'll post again in FYM. While I enjoy responding to your posts and a few others, the majority of them seem not to be worth it...which might just be my own bad, in the end, but it is what it is. I'll keep reading your blog though -- always good stuff there.

Peace.
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