Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers?

[Kristie]

Thank you for telling the truth. God should be bigger than us, and he IS, and we should not create him in our own image, regardless of what the world wants.

don't we create him in our own image anyway, though?

Interpretations of the Bible and guidelines of the Church (any church) change over time to meet current societal changes. It used to be that women were inferior, because the Bible said so. Africans were meant to be slaves, because the Bible said so (many people used the Bible to back owning slaves). Now, the times have changed, and haven't our interpretations? In changing our Biblical interpretations, do we not change our idea of what God wants, and thus making him over again?
....that's the sociological take on it, at least. Discuss.

Indra said:

Any god worth it's salt would be able to create many belief systems for the various peoples of the world...each of them valid ways to heaven (or whatever). In fact, I think the real way ito heaven (if it even exists) is to live the best life possible...essentially, just doing the best you can. And I think everyone, not just Christians (or people of any other faith) is eligible.

It seems to me that the ideas of God that various peoples have is the best way for them to worship... not necessarily the only way, but the way that most fits their way of life. It goes back to the whole society makes God in its own image thing. I would not ever try and tell someone that my way is the "right" way. It's right for me. I would love to have the confidence many of you have in your beliefs.

Next question: Someone was talking about how, before Jesus, people got into heaven based on their belief in God. Is this the Hebrew God? What about, say, peoples with a whole pantheon of spirits that haven't heard of God?

 

[MadelynIris]

Next question: Someone was talking about how, before Jesus, people got into heaven based on their belief in God. Is this the Hebrew God? What about, say, peoples with a whole pantheon of spirits that haven't heard of God?

Here is an interesting attribute of God I'd like to bring up:

GOD IS FAIR.

Yes, and we do not completely understand how far his fairness goes. I can't tell you exactly how he decides who will be with him on the new earth (did you guys get that, I didn't say heaven).

But I do know that he laid out some requirements through the Word, and through Jesus. And that overall, you should consider the process of understanding these requirements, through reading, talking with others, praying, and just experiencing the hardships and joys of life, that you are refined into something pleasing to God, and closer to God, so you'll have a love for God when you are with him on the new earth.

The one thing that seems pretty clear, as NB point out, is that if you reject God because of ego, or because you think you know better, or because you obviously are superior to all those red state lemmings (sorry had to do it), and you walk away from God, then guess what, being with Him on the new earth, well, wouldn't exactly be the place for you, especially for eternity.

So are you going to be eternally tortued because of this? Some Christians think that, but many think that you'll just die, and be seperated from God. So, in that case, if you don't believe in him anyway, you're not missing out, because most people that don't believe in God, just believe that when they die it's over.

So back to the original question. God is fair. Some people have a sense of God through looking at creation around them, and have a relationship without ever knowing the Gospel and the sacrifice of Jesus. Others that die young, or reject the Gospel because of the way it was presented to them (e.g., a pedophiliac priest), God understands this and will be fair.

But for those that have had the opportunity laid out in front of them, know the Gospel, and reject it, then there is no place for them to be with God.

Heaven is not a reward, it's chance for those who know God, to be with him on a new earth. I don't know what it's going to be like, but as a believer, one who worships God for his wonderful attributes, I look forward to being with him.

Mark

 

[Irvine511]

here's what i think my problem is: it's not the message, but the messangers.

i admire faith, but to assert faith as fact without acknowledging the very human choice to belive, to have faith, is a bit disconcerting. without acknowledging any doubt or any struggles you -- here, the "believers" -- have had while on your road to faith, it sounds like you're blindly repeating what someone else has told you. i feel certain that all believers on this list have thought long and hard about these things, i just wish it were reflected more when they actually write about faith. the more doubts you express about your faith, the more likely i am to take what you say about your faith seriously.

these declarative statements: "Heaven is not a reward, it's chance for those who know God, to be with him on a new earth" make me far more skeptical of the message because of the certainty of the messanger. doubt and struggle are evidence of an active mind, in my opinion.

 

[Dreadsox]

God is always the bigger person because of GRACE.

The theme throughout the old and the new is that GOD'S grace has always been present.

I think that through GOD'S grace, all stand a chance to be saved.

I also think many denominations and religions believe that they have cornered the market on salvation. Fortunately for the world, there is GRACE.

Looking at some of the characters in the bible, I see that GOD sometime chooses people that you or I might judge to be less than perfect. Abram was CHOSEN and GOD extended his GRACE towards Abraham with all of his flaws.

Thank goodness for GRACE, because of it.....I have a chance and I am a believer.

 

[Dreadsox]

The other day I was watching ER. In it, there was a guy who was dying (played by Ray Liotta), and Dr. Kovach (sp?) was talking to him. The guy said "I have never been a believer, and I guess that's going to bite me in the ass now, huh?" to which the Dr. replied, "I think God will get over it."

I love this dialog......

 

[blueyedpoet]

geez, ya wait until it's 1:44 pm your local time and five pages of bantering has occured. as much as i'd still like to discuss the issue of determinism, free will, and morality, think i need to interject something else.
There are a lot of skeptics in this thread and there are a lot of christians. My belief is that God is something so far beyond human qualities. God doesn't love; God is love. God doesn't care; God is care.
To my fellow skeptics (and i'm sure i haven't sounded like much of one thus far in this reply) I think if God were the type to talk God would be very thrilled with your line of questioning. I realize this statement sounds like I'm attributing human characteristics to God, cause well it is. Still, I guess i'm just trying to say that asking questions, being curious, demanding more than sunday school answers, are all "holy" (if we use judeo-christian language). Seek, jesus did say.

 

[Irvine511]

i think god would prefer a struggling skeptic than a blind believer.

but there i go projecting human qualities unto the infinite ...

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not believe that we choose GOD......

I believe GOD has chosen EVERYONE.

I believe that we are responsible for answering GOD'S call to us as best as we can...some of us answer better than others...but the point is that we answer as imperfect as we are...the sin is in NOT answering.

 

[Dreadsox]

Anyone here ever heard of the apostle Thomas?

 

[Dreadsox]

I MISS MELON

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

geez, ya wait until it's 1:44 pm your local time and five pages of bantering has occured. as much as i'd still like to discuss the issue of determinism, free will, and morality, think i need to interject something else.
There are a lot of skeptics in this thread and there are a lot of christians. My belief is that God is something so far beyond human qualities. God doesn't love; God is love. God doesn't care; God is care.
To my fellow skeptics (and i'm sure i haven't sounded like much of one thus far in this reply) I think if God were the type to talk God would be very thrilled with your line of questioning. I realize this statement sounds like I'm attributing human characteristics to God, cause well it is. Still, I guess i'm just trying to say that asking questions, being curious, demanding more than sunday school answers, are all "holy" (if we use judeo-christian language). Seek, jesus did say.

once again you are right...almost. what is the verse on the cover of atyclb? oh yeah, jeremiah 33:3 "Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things that you did not know." and elsewhere you find the passage that you reference "seek and ye shall find". of course seeking is important, and it puts you a step ahead of the person who says that they just don't care or that it doesn't matter.

but...and this is where i feel that you went wrong...the seeking is not what makes you holy, it is the answer. i mean, when you take a trip, you are not satisfied with yourself for simply being on the journey. the reason for being on the journey is to reach your destination, and you should not be satisfied until you get there.

so the question becomes, what are you looking for?

 

[MadelynIris]

these declarative statements: "Heaven is not a reward, it's chance for those who know God, to be with him on a new earth" make me far more skeptical of the message because of the certainty of the messanger. doubt and struggle are evidence of an active mind, in my opinion.

Ok, so it's the messenger. Sorry.

Do I sound so certain? I have had doubts, untold discussions, questions where I really get into it with other friends and believers. We're always searching, seeking, trying, testing.

That particular statement was meant to bust open this idea that heaven is some magic place that we all go to when we die. From what I know of years of working through scripture, studying, listening, debating, is not that.

It's something much cooler.

I worship God not because of a reward.

I worship God because of his awesome attributes.

Why do you worship U2? Because of their attributes right?

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

I do not believe that we choose GOD......

I believe GOD has chosen EVERYONE.

I believe that we are responsible for answering GOD'S call to us as best as we can...some of us answer better than others...but the point is that we answer as imperfect as we are...the sin is in NOT answering.

dread, excellent point. that is the message of the gospel. John 3:16 "for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." notice that God loves the world, he has called each and every one of us to be with him. all that is required is that we put our faith in him and his promise.

 

[blueyedpoet]

"i think god would prefer a struggling skeptic than a blind believer.

but there i go projecting human qualities unto the infinite ..."

maybe we should say that skeptics should not be seen as folks who are greatly out of touch with the divine, maybe they are a lot closer than many realize or would care to admit.

 

[Dreadsox]

I highly recommend we all watch The Passion of The Christ. It speaks for itself what Jesus had to go through to give us eternal life. I've heard people say (not on this site, but others) dying is easy, anyone can do it. In reality, every flaw Christ took was out of his love and his willingness to save us. I had no idea how brutal his crucifixion was before I saw this movie, and no wonder why the theaters were silent, people were weeping, and comforting each other.

From what I understand, some people still didn't "get it", whereas many others were transformed through this movie. There was a murderer who killed his girlfriend, covered it up for years, then saw this movie, and admitted to it! He turned himself in because he realized he couldn't just live with the guilt of his sin without confessing it.

There is finally proof that Hollywood can come out with something meaningful.

I think the movie was CRAP......

I think South Parks the Passion of the Jew had more meaning to me than this movie.

If some got meaning out of it....tremendous for them....great.

The message of Christ was NOT present for me in this movie. That does not mean it could not be for others.

Funny, I defended the movie in another thread.....and now I feel completely different about it now that I am working on a few projects in my church.

 

[blueyedpoet]

shrmn8rpoptart so rightly asks me, "what are you looking for?"....i'm looking for truth. i know that sounds lame, but i'm just being honest. I want truth and I think truth should sound at least a little more logical than christianity, afterall didn't God give me the abilitity to reason? (again, I doubt that God used any sort of hands and bestowed reason to me as a personal gift...but you get the picture)

 

[Dreadsox]

I would say that with all this looking for the truth....stop it.

Start answering GOD'S call to your heart. Start with something basic, like the Sermon on the Mount. Live and walk the walk of someone who loves your neighbor.

Don't be on the sidelines waiting for the truth to hit you like an anvil. GODS grace is BIGGER than any DOCTRINE or TRUTH that we choose to believe or not believe, the message and living the message is more important than believing in a DOCTRINE.

 

[Dreadsox]

Off to the conference.......prayers accepted.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

here's what i think my problem is: it's not the message, but the messangers.

i admire faith, but to assert faith as fact without acknowledging the very human choice to belive, to have faith, is a bit disconcerting. without acknowledging any doubt or any struggles you -- here, the "believers" -- have had while on your road to faith, it sounds like you're blindly repeating what someone else has told you. i feel certain that all believers on this list have thought long and hard about these things, i just wish it were reflected more when they actually write about faith. the more doubts you express about your faith, the more likely i am to take what you say about your faith seriously.

these declarative statements: "Heaven is not a reward, it's chance for those who know God, to be with him on a new earth" make me far more skeptical of the message because of the certainty of the messanger. doubt and struggle are evidence of an active mind, in my opinion.

if this is what you want, seriously go read some c.s. lewis, one of the greatest Christian apologists of our time! you find everything that you said you were looking for in his works. here are some titles that are especially apt for this discussion:
The Problem of Pain-(summary from the back of the book) "why must we suffer? "If God is good and all-powerful, why does he allow his creatures to suffer pain?" And what of the suffering of animals, who neither deserve pain nor can be imporved by it? The greatest Christian thinker or our time sets out to disentangle this knotty issue. With his signature compassion and insight, c.s. lewis offers answers to these crucial questions and shares his hope and wisdom to help heal a world hungering for a true understanding of human nature."

A Grief Observed-this book is the journal he kept of his thoughts when his wife died. he curses God, and practically recants his faith at times-yet he is able to find peace and hope in the Word of God. he deals very heavily of issues of life and death in this book.

also check around for some of his essays, they are fantastic as well. "God in the Dock" would work particularly well in this case.

and this was a man who spent a lot of the first half of his life as an atheist, as someone whose admited goal was to prove Christianity wrong. this man has struggled with his faith just as all Christians do. when i read him i take great comfort in knowing that this guy went through the same troubles that i am. i think anyone would be able to find much of the same by reading him.

 

[blueyedpoet]

It's not like while I'm searching for truth I'm also hating my neighbor. Yes, I should stop searching for truth, I should ignore parts of the Sermon on the Mount when jesus talks about asking.

 

[Dreadsox]

It's not like while I'm searching for truth I'm also hating my neighbor. Yes, I should stop searching for truth, I should ignore parts of the Sermon on the Mount when jesus talks about asking.

If I somehow offended you...that was not my intent. peace

 

[MadelynIris]

the more doubts you express about your faith, the more likely i am to take what you say about your faith seriously.

Some people got way to much confidence baby.

I hear ya.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

shrmn8rpoptart so rightly asks me, "what are you looking for?"....i'm looking for truth. i know that sounds lame, but i'm just being honest. I want truth and I think truth should sound at least a little more logical than christianity, afterall didn't God give me the abilitity to reason? (again, I doubt that God used any sort of hands and bestowed reason to me as a personal gift...but you get the picture)

ah this reminded me...another book to read is lewis's "pilgrim's regress". it is a fictional portrayal of his journey to find truth. it's kind of a fantasy story (not as much as the chronicles of narnia though, yet they are fantastic as well) and he speaks to the very issues that you bring up, and does so much more eloquently and lucidly than i could ever hope to.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

and "mere christianity" how did i forget that?

 

[blueyedpoet]

"If I somehow offended you...that was not my intent. peace"

As another great Irish man would say "Keep cool my babies" - Conan, if ya didn't know.

I think I hear what you're saying, I'm just very critical of the idea of not searching.

 

[blueyedpoet]

funny thing is, I am sitting on a bed with "The Quotable Lewis."
Yeah, i'm a giant fan of that man's mind. I even sat where he Tolkien and others in their Oxford circle would sit on Tuesday's, discuss matters and drink a pint, oh and smoke a whole lot....anyways I've read a lof of his material...Mere Christianity to Problem of Pain. I just feel he makes so assertions that I feel are to grand of leaps.
Someone earlier was talking about how honesty in their faith is more appealing than straight easy answers, Lewis's A Grief Observed is far clearer about the problem of pain than the book aptly titled Problem of Pain

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

i think you are right on "a grief observed" because he had finally been delt some pain. i guess he acknowledges in "problem of" that he probably isn't the best guy to be writing on the subject either. anyways it kicks ass to find another lewis fan!

anyways, i think if you were to sit down and have a face to face with most true believers, you will find that their faith is the hardest part of their lives. i know it is for me. but then again it was never meant to be easy. as a Christian i am daily called to take up my cross.

and if you really want to read about a guy whose faith caused him major struggles, there is always martin luther! this guy was to the point of killing himself because he was convinced that he had been predestined to hell, and that nothing in his life could amount to any good. then, he happened upon the love of the gospel, and the story goes on from there.

 

[blueyedpoet]

i just don't like how Luther hid when the peasants revolted.....totally off topic.......since we're talking about christian authors people ought to check out Phillip Yancey. He wrote that book Bono gave Noel Gallagher What's So Amazing about Grace? Although, that happens to be a bit of a disappointment....first half of that book is great, the latter sinks a bit. Nevertheless, Yancey has some great books.
where did all the skeptics go???

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

hmm...i will have to check that out. as soon as i get some money for new books that is...or maybe i could break down and go to the library.

 

[Se7en]

Someone like Se7en has a lot of skepticism, but I think that if he went to a church service and had a chat with the pastor, he might come to understand how faith in God works.

i wonder if you know how many church services i attended in the first 19 years of my life. more than i care to count. been there, done that.

faith in which/who's god?

ps. i think some of you misunderstood my post on prayer. i was not suggesting i am in need of a genie, in fact the genie mentality is what bothers me most about prayer. i've just come to the conclusion that god answers no prayers. and again, i am not bitter about that in the least.