Bush WH "holiday" cards angers Christians

[BonosSaint]

It could. Hell yes.


Merry Christmas, Mrs. S.

 

[BVS]

Honestly, since I don't know what everyone's belief systems are, I usually do say "Happy Holidays." But now since that might offend people too, I'm flat out going to ignore the holidays altogether around other people and pretend it's just another day completely.

Happy?

Melon

You could just walk around saying F.O.A.D.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

It could. Merry Christmas, Mrs. S.

Hmm, somehow I suspected. As for me, I dream only of Denny Crane in nothing but a Santa hat. Merry Christmas and all that to you as well

 

[the iron horse]

I posted a thread here or somewhere last year...

*who keeps track of these things?*

...on how The White House Christmas Decorations (last year)
were Christ-Less.


I don't know. I'm not gonna pass judgement on President Bush's
faith, but I don't understand the why of this apparant avoidence of a direct refrence to that rebel from Nazareth.


For the record:

I voted Libertarian the past two U.S. elections.

 

[U2DMfan]

I know this subject is already a bore, but I am bored myself.

The only problem I have in general is when (person A) would claim Christmas as a religous holiday that means something to them deeply and spiritually and then toss out "Merry Christmas" as if it were a universal secular holiday greeting. It's either one or the other, right?

It seems that the biggest disconnect on this basically unimportant issue, is those who esteem Christmas as a sacred holiday and pretend it's inclusive all by itself and by tradition.
That doesn't make any sense.

I could see why someone who holds Christmas as a very religous and profound holiday would be offended by changing it's name. But how can these people not understand that by this very notion the term "Merry Christmas" is exclusive. So stop pretending it's a secular, inclusive holiday when it's not. One or the other.

Stop pretending that you want to preserve the traditions of Christmas, when really you want to preserve the sanctity of Christmas. There's nothing wrong with doing so, just don't pretend it's inclusive when it's not.

I've said it before in the 'War on Christmas' thread, I'd like to see the Christian churches in general, divorce itself from this big corporate retail windfall and de-secularize (if that's even a word) the holiday altogether. Make it a true religous holiday, then the lines are distinct and clear. I'd look forward to Christmas again like I do with Easter, colored eggs aside.

 

[SomethingMissin]

Its kinda silly that people get upset over all of this stuff and it kind of takes away from the season if youd ask me, so i'd suggest we come up with some new holiday greetings. I cant really think of too many right now, but how about.... Peace on Earth?

 

[melon]

Its kinda silly that people get upset over all of this stuff and it kind of takes away from the season if youd ask me, so i'd suggest we come up with some new holiday greetings. I cant really think of too many right now, but how about.... Peace on Earth?

The Religious Right would get offended. They might find it an insult to their crusades in the Middle East.

Anyway, it's not about Christmas. It's yet another tactic towards building the theocracy. They don't want multiculturalism. They want Christianity. Period.

Melon

 

[verte76]

I don't have any sympathy for these complainers. After all, many Americans don't celebrate Christmas, they celebrate Hunnakah or some other holiday. I'd rather they sent out the more inclusive cards.

 

[the iron horse]

"Anyway, it's not about Christmas. It's yet another tactic towards building the theocracy. They don't want multiculturalism. They want Christianity. Period."

Melon


Not meaning to go off topic here,
but Melon, I don't understand what you are saying.

I don't see the Christians as being the offensive winners in this cultural war.


*no prpblem here...i'm withy that rebel from Nazareth* :lol

 

[melon]

Not meaning to go off topic here,
but Melon, I don't understand what you are saying.

I don't see the Christians as being the offensive winners in this cultural war.

I'm not sure if they're going to win or lose, but, regardless, they are going on the offensive. They are angry that America isn't some mirror of "Leave it to Beaver," and they want to recreate some idealized nation that never existed. And, like I said, they started with unpopular minorities and now they're ratcheting up the rhetoric attacking minority religious beliefs. Let's forget that December celebrates three holidays, at least: Christmas, Chanukah, and Kwanzaa. Whether people wish to call "Kwanzaa" a real holiday or not is frankly not up for a vote. Some people really do celebrate it.

If people really want to make me cranky, I'll bring up the fact that giving gifts on Christmas is a late 19th century practice created by the department stores. American tradition, prior to that, was to give gifts on New Years Eve. If people make me especially cranky, I'll bring up the fact that Christmas on December 25th was set by the Roman Empire on "Natalis Solis Invicti" (Birthday of the Invicible Sun), which was the birthday of the sun god, Mithras.

So if I say "Happy Holidays," it's not to water-down Christmas. It's to recognize that this season is much more than just Christmas. I don't consider "Christmas" a secular holiday. In fact, I think all this tree/gift/marketing nonsense is part of the "holiday season," not Christmas. I think all of this commercialism has done far more to water down the meaning of Christmas than saying "Happy Holidays." But, like I said, that's not the point of the uproar. The point is to ratchet up the "culture war." How annoying.

Melon

 

[indra]

Happy Holidays is boring. Show some backbone and let other people know what you BELIEVE. We're scared to death of that in our society.

It's fine to show what you believe, but if you are wishing someone else a happy holiday, shouldn't you want to wish them a happy whatever holiday they celebrate? Or is it all about you? Are you really wishing them only happiness if they celebrate the same holiday as you?

I don't understand what is so terrible about wishing someone the more inclusive Happy Holidays. Christmas is a holiday, isn't it? So no one is leaving out Christmas when they say Happy Holidays, but you are leaving out every other holiday when you say Merry Christmas.

 

[Irvine511]

You could just walk around saying F.O.A.D.

i think we have a winner.

from now on, i will be saying that to all my friends in december, christian or jewish or hindu or atheist or agonstic.

 

[indra]

What typical bullshit.


If you don't want to wish someone a Merry Christmas, don't.

But stop whining about "Theocracy" or "non-inclusive" if someone does say Merry Christmas.

ummm....the thing is the people whining are the ones who don't like happy holidays.

(reread the initial post....)

 

[indra]

isn't anyone sick of this subject yet?

Nah. it'a a fun break from anything important.

Really. It is fun to fight over nothing once in a while. Sharpens the skills but doesn't mean a hill of beans.

 

[Sherry Darling]

Happy Holidays is boring. Show some backbone and let other people know what you BELIEVE. We're scared to death of that in our society.

"Boring" is a weak critique. You need conflict in your life for entertainment? Listen, I hear your desire for people to have some backbone and stand up for what they believe. But how come you don't see that that's exactly what, for example, Ouizy and/or Yolland, are doing by pointing out that Christmas isn't a universal celebration?

I don't need to wear crosses or throw Scripture at folks or insist on my faith being represented on state greetings for folks to who Whose I am. In fact, if I need to say "Merry Christmas" to them instead of "Happy Holidays" for them to know I'm a follower of Christ, I'm doing something wrong.

 

[corianderstem]

I don't need to wear crosses or throw Scripture at folks

I just had an imagine of someone saying, "Hey! You! Merry Christmas!" and chucking a Bible at them.

I think that's what I'll do this blessed holiday season.

 

[BVS]

It's fine to show what you believe, but if you are wishing someone else a happy holiday, shouldn't you want to wish them a happy whatever holiday they celebrate? Or is it all about you? Are you really wishing them only happiness if they celebrate the same holiday as you?

I think this is the question so many who argue this "no backbone", "pc", etc aren't asking themselves.

In the spirit of giving, let's only think of ourselves.



If you want to show backbone and show people what you believe wear a cross, if you really want to show them how loving and compassionate a Christian can be then try and take their beliefs into consideration.

 

[Zoomerang96]

i haven't read a single post in this thread, but i'll say this much.

christmas was originally intended for religious reasons, particularly the birth of christ.

if people have a hard time signifying that by calling december 25 "christmas", i think that's stupid. christmas is christmas. it's been that way for...well i guess 2005 years now?

being politcally correct is pointless. call it the way it is.

however, the way the neo-con groups go about this is, is of course, incredibly embarassing.

why, WHY do they care if stores don't call their "seasonal" sales "christmas" specials? i'd rather it not to be...that's exactly what's wrong with christmas anyway - the excessive commercialism. 7ust WHO's interests do they have in mind here???

so basically, i hate both sides of the arguement, but i'll call christmas what it is - CHRISTMAS.

if someone's offended by that, they can bite me. right in the ass. but beware of the hair - it's like straw. good luck with that.

 

[Zoomerang96]

It's fine to show what you believe, but if you are wishing someone else a happy holiday, shouldn't you want to wish them a happy whatever holiday they celebrate? Or is it all about you? Are you really wishing them only happiness if they celebrate the same holiday as you?

I don't understand what is so terrible about wishing someone the more inclusive Happy Holidays. Christmas is a holiday, isn't it? So no one is leaving out Christmas when they say Happy Holidays, but you are leaving out every other holiday when you say Merry Christmas.

politcal correctness again.

i'm sorry indra, but with all due respect, and yes i do respect your opinions on 7ust about everything, this is fucked logic.

i'll wish anyone a merry christmas if i want to, and if they don't celebrate it - too bad. they are now, cause i told them to.

if you want to worry about stepping on toes to that extent, you'll die of ulcers by the time you're 35.

i hope this doesn't sound too harsh indra, because again, i really have nothing against you. 7ust your arguement.

 

[indra]

i haven't read a single post in this thread, but i'll say this much.

christmas was originally intended for religious reasons, particularly the birth of christ.

if people have a hard time signifying that by calling december 25 "christmas", i think that's stupid. christmas is christmas. it's been that way for...well i guess 2005 years now?

being politcally correct is pointless. call it the way it is.

however, the way the neo-con groups go about this is, is of course, incredibly embarassing.

why, WHY do they care if stores don't call their "seasonal" sales "christmas" specials? i'd rather it not to be...that's exactly what's wrong with christmas anyway - the excessive commercialism. 7ust WHO's interests do they have in mind here???

so basically, i hate both sides of the arguement, but i'll call christmas what it is - CHRISTMAS.

if someone's offended by that, they can bite me. right in the ass. but beware of the hair - it's like straw. good luck with that.

Chanukah isn't Christmas.

 

[Liesje]

i haven't read a single post in this thread, but i'll say this much.

christmas was originally intended for religious reasons, particularly the birth of christ.

if people have a hard time signifying that by calling december 25 "christmas", i think that's stupid. christmas is christmas. it's been that way for...well i guess 2005 years now?

Actually....Christmas (like Easter) is mostly secular. Christians took secular celebrations and added their own religious meaning to them.

(and I argue this as a Christian myself)

oh, and Christ was not born in the year 0.

 

[Zoomerang96]

and i'm not 7ewish. what's your point?

if i was 7ewish i'd wish everyone a happy chanukah, and then i'd piss off the purists on the other side of the fence.

honestly, WHO CARES?

if people are truly offended about this, they have too much time on their hands.

if a muslim wished me happy tidings in respect to their most special holiday, do you think i'd be upset? of course not, i'd be happy to have the well-wish no matter the context of their religion. THAT'S TOLERANCE.

 

[indra]

politcal correctness again.

i'm sorry indra, but with all due respect, and yes i do respect your opinions on 7ust about everything, this is fucked logic.

i'll wish anyone a merry christmas if i want to, and if they don't celebrate it - too bad. they are now, cause i told them to.

if you want to worry about stepping on toes to that extent, you'll die of ulcers by the time you're 35.

i hope this doesn't sound too harsh indra, because again, i really have nothing against you. 7ust your arguement.

ummmm...well I'm not dead yet dear and I'm older than 35. Never had an ulcer in my life.

I don't see where consideration of other people is fucked logic. If you want to wish someone a Merry Christmas that is fine and dandy, but if I want to wish them a Happy Holiday that should be fine and dandy also.

 

[Zoomerang96]

Actually....Christmas (like Easter) is mostly secular. Christians took secular celebrations and added their own religious meaning to them.

(and I argue this as a Christian myself)

oh, and Christ was not born in the year 0.

you totally missed my point, and i fear i have no idea what you're trying to say here either.

and the actual year christ was born isn't the point, it's not important, i used that date as an easy example.

christmas is "supposed" to be about christ, and the subsequent commercialistic downfall of said holiday is not something that was initially intended.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What on earth makes them neoconservatives?

 

[Zoomerang96]

ummmm...well I'm not dead yet dear and I'm older than 35. Never had an ulcer in my life.

I don't see where consideration of other people is fucked logic. If you want to wish someone a Merry Christmas that is fine and dandy, but if I want to wish them a Happy Holiday that should be fine and dandy also.

absolutely! i don't disagree with that at all.

 

[indra]

and i'm not 7ewish. what's your point?

if i was 7ewish i'd wish everyone a happy chanukah, and then i'd piss off the purists on the other side of the fence.

honestly, WHO CARES?

if people are truly offended about this, they have too much time on their hands.

if a muslim wished me happy tidings in respect to their most special holiday, do you think i'd be upset? of course not, i'd be happy to have the well-wish no matter the context of their religion. THAT'S TOLERANCE.

my point is there are more holidays in December than just Christmas. To say "It's Christmas, damn it" is only valid on Dec 25.

Hell, I don't care. I'll go for any holiday that get's me gifts and time off.

And I'll say Happy Holidays too! (actually I'm more apt to say Bah Humbug..... )

 

[indra]

absolutely! i don't disagree with that at all.

There you go! We've solved the problem. Everyone can now rejoice and dance naked around the festivus pole!

 

[Zoomerang96]

my high school actually celebrated festivus last year. good times.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Festivus is grounded in just as much fact as Christmas.