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Old 09-22-2004, 07:32 AM   #16
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I respectfully disagree, as I have made abundantly clear in my other posts I disagree with his social agenda but he hits the nail on the head when he states that liberty ensures peace. Fighting to spread and preserve freedom must be the driving force behind the US foreign policy, failure to ensure its success guarantees annihilation. Lets see some liberals who stand for liberty!
Liberals do stand for liberty, which is why most of us are against the Patriot Act. Yes, liberty ensures peace, but Bush's record on enforcing this is dismal.

-- Partriot Act -- how do you know you're not on the Do Not Fly list? How do you know no one is looking at your library books or video rentals? You don't.

-- Gitmo prison -- Most prisoners have been there for three years without any access to an attorney to prove they are guilty or innocent.

-- Abu Ghraib -- abusing prisoners is not showing the positive things about liberty

-- Iraq -- how would you feel if a foreign power invaded your country and wouldn't leave? you probably wouldn't feel liberty and liberated
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:37 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
-- Partriot Act -- how do you know you're not on the Do Not Fly list?
Ask Cat Stevens
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:25 AM   #18
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A_Wanderer

I wonder if you ever realize that your style of responding to every post that disagrees with you with a page-long rebuttle is annoying to some. You can have whatever opinion you want, everyone can, that's what makes freedom great. But shoving your POV down everyone's throats and implying that those who don't support the war are pro-terrorism isn't going to change anyone's mind. It's just going to annoy them.
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:27 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
-- Partriot Act -- how do you know you're not on the Do Not Fly list? How do you know no one is looking at your library books or video rentals? You don't.


When I read that first question I also thought of him, immediately. I guess the answer is by making better music.
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR
A_Wanderer

I wonder if you ever realize that your style of responding to every post that disagrees with you with a page-long rebuttle is annoying to some. You can have whatever opinion you want, everyone can, that's what makes freedom great. But shoving your POV down everyone's throats and implying that those who don't support the war are pro-terrorism isn't going to change anyone's mind. It's just going to annoy them.

I disagree, if you are referring to his last post.

I can better understand his 'point of view' with some background on how he has arrived at his conclusions.
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Old 09-22-2004, 09:48 AM   #21
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I'm glad awanderer responded in a longer way - i still don't agree with him but i think in principle or view on the world isn't that different.
My mayor concern is that the current "war on terrorism" will raise 10 new terrorists while we killed one and put 3 suspects into prison for unlimited time without access to an attorney . That's why i prefer an international approach where the responsible people are put on a fair an unbiased trial to show that our (the western world) ideals of justice and liberty are reality
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Old 09-22-2004, 11:02 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Klaus
I'm glad awanderer responded in a longer way - i still don't agree with him but i think in principle or view on the world isn't that different.
My mayor concern is that the current "war on terrorism" will raise 10 new terrorists while we killed one and put 3 suspects into prison for unlimited time without access to an attorney . That's why i prefer an international approach where the responsible people are put on a fair an unbiased trial to show that our (the western world) ideals of justice and liberty are reality
you mean the way they were going after terrorists for 25 years prior to 9/11?

yeah... that way worked well.
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Old 09-22-2004, 11:06 AM   #23
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Originally posted by sharky
How do you know no one is looking at your library books or video rentals? You don't.
To be perfectly honest with you I couldn't care less. The librarians know what books I take out... the pimple faced high school punk that works the counter at Blockbuster knows what videos I rent. I don't really care, because...

A) I've got nothing to hide
B) I'm not so naive that I'd actually believe that the government wouldn't get the information if they really wanted it anyways, patriot act or no patriot act.
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Old 09-22-2004, 11:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


you mean the way they were going after terrorists for 25 years prior to 9/11?

yeah... that way worked well.
You can see what hapened with the RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion, not Royal Air Force), 1970ies in Germany.

9/11 could hapen because the secret services didn't do their job.

But if you respond in a way mr. bush did it (Talking about a Crusade, imprisoning hundreds of people of around 40 different nationalities without charge or trial, despite a major international outcry and expert condemnation of US government policy while harboring anti-iranian terrorists, Saddam's nuclear weapons, anthrax, mustard, and nerve gas, mobile chemical weapon labs etc.) don't be surprised that organisations like al-quaida don't have problems to brandmark Mr. Bush and his government as "evil"and liars

From my point of view Mr. Bush just dosn't do his job the way he should do it.
Another example: ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...192158,00.html )
Quote:
Bush, in fact, does not read his President's Daily Briefs, but has them orally summarised every morning by the CIA director, George Tenet. President Clinton, by contrast, read them closely and alone, preventing any aides from interpreting what he wanted to know first-hand. He extensively marked up his PDBs, demanding action on this or that, which is almost certainly the likely reason the Bush administration withheld his memoranda from the 9/11 commission.
Maybe it's because he has problems with reading comparable his talking-handicap.But these behavious make it easy for people like Rummy or Cheney to tell him the facts partially to influense the presidents decisions.
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Old 09-22-2004, 01:14 PM   #25
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i'm really not afraid of people who find chopping someone's head off a just and rightous act believing that WE are evil. i'm pretty sure where i stand on that argument.
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Old 09-22-2004, 02:44 PM   #26
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Well i'm affraid of people who think that "bringing the war to them" is better.

They could start an attack against an US industrial chemical plant.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/22/op...lperin.html?th

Quote:
The dangers from chemical plant mishaps are clear. According to data compiled by Greenpeace International, the 1984 accident at an Union Carbide insecticide plant in Bhopal, India, has caused 20,000 deaths and injuries to 200,000 people. A terrorist group could cause even greater harm by entering a plant in the United States and setting off an explosion that produces a deadly gas cloud.

...

Industry groups have lobbied intensely against the Corzine legislation. While reluctant to invest in plant safety, some of these companies and their executives have found the resources to help pay for the Republican campaign.

For the Bush administration, it seems, homeland security is critical except when it conflicts with the wishes of supporters who own chemical plants.
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Old 09-22-2004, 03:56 PM   #27
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I understand now, liberty for me but not for thee. Patriot act and other measures are not the way to solve the problem. As I said before you cannot end terror until the groups themselves are gone, otherwise you will be permanently on the defensive and in a state of perpetual war, that is not good.
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Old 09-22-2004, 06:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Well i'm affraid of people who think that "bringing the war to them" is better.

They could start an attack against an US industrial chemical plant.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/22/op...lperin.html?th

do you actually friggin believe that if we just leave them alone they'll leave us alone? are you that diluted in your thinking? they will not stop till we are 100% out of the middle east, till we drop all support for israel, and till we recognize allah as the one true god. in other words... THEY WILL NOT STOP.

they took french people hostage... the french weren't in iraq. they rallied against the war in iraq. but they took them hostage because of the headscarf law, a law which in the minds of the french government was supposedly put in place to bring peace and equality amongst all peoples, regardless of religious beliefs. fat chance buddy... do you honestly believe joe islamic fundamentalist is for the seperation of church and state? to them, church is the state, and anyone who disobeys that state shall be killed.

we were not in a war with them prior to 9/11. we should have been, but we weren't. but we supported israel. and we had troops based in saudi arabia. so they attacked us. they killed 3000 innocent people who were just showing up to work. people i knew... people who had babys on the way. people near retirement. people who had nothing to do with anything and just wanted to do their jobs.

so what if we backed out of saudi arabia? what if we dropped support for israel. and say the fundamentalists take over israel. and they have us out of the middle east. what then? you think that will be it? you think they'll be happy knowing that just across the medeteranian are a bunch of people who don't bow to mecca? do you want to reason with a person who believes that chopping off an innocent person's head is the way to get results??

these people are sick FUCKS who pevert the name of God into something small and disgusting. you talk about Bush conducting a crusade? THE TERRRORISTS are conducting a fucking crusade. they're conducting a jihad against anything that they believe to be against allah, including the US, Europe, Asia, and their own damn people!

they WILL NOT STOP. PERIOD. You appease them now, they'll be knocking on your and my doorstep tommorow.

and the people they live amongst are powerless to stop them, because they're scared. if i had to live in an area where i could be decapitated for speaking out, i'd sure as hell keep my mouth shut, too.

The violence will continue wether we are in Iraq or wether we're sitting with our thumbs up our ass here in America, oblivious to it all.

I don't want to see any Americans die. I'm saddened by the loss of American life, and the innocent civilians who have died. But ya know what? THEY are dying too. And God damn it if we as a nation ever sit back and let them take cheap shots at us, and all we do is respond with a pen and paper and a strategicly placed Tomahawk. God save us all if that day ever returns.
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Old 09-22-2004, 06:25 PM   #29
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Strategically placed tomahawks into baby food factories I bet that brought fear into the hearts of the Islamists.

I make the point that the magnitude of the threat has been rising, the next attack may kill hundreds of thousands or even millions. You can not sit back on the defence because eventually one attack will get through. This is the fourth world war. It has been running full strength for the past decade.
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Old 09-22-2004, 10:29 PM   #30
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Thank you, indra, for your contributions to this thread.

With all respect to our Interferencers from other countries, I must say that it really would be inappropriate for me to talk about another country's President or PM and their policies as if I knew more about them than the people from that country.

A_Wanderer does not live in the USA and so he is not REALLY aware of how our standard of living is INCREASINGLY GOING DOWN UNDER GEORGE BUSH and how this President is MAKING THE USA MORE VUNERABLE TO ANOTHER TERRORIST ATTACK by his aggressive foreign policies.

It is easy to agree with a policy when you are not reaping the ill effects of that policy ( like increased isolation in the world community). I simply ask our Interferencers from other countries to listen more to the concerns of the U.S. posters regarding George Bush's policies.

If anyone knows the ill effects of the Bush administration's short-sighted policies, it's the American people.

I say this with all respect for everyone here.
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