An Inconvenient Electric Bill

[BVS]

I swear I don't get some of you. You go around and bash the fuck out of Bush. Gore who is going around slamming the administration about it's lack of doing something to stop global warming uses 20times more energy than a regular house hold. And he still complains about the war in iraq, while that oil lights his house at 30 grand a month.

He's not just "slamming" this administration, he's speaking globally.

And what is Gore using his household for, how many employees are working from his house, etc...

A bill is useless without context. So until you have any of that, be quiet and do what you can for the planet.

Medeval vs. current times? SUV vs covered wagons?

Seriously, this is what you guys come up with?

 

[Vincent Vega]

or envy (depending on if you live here or not)

Hahahaha, got me.

Envy of not living in the US! Great

 

[BVS]

Only because we are also the most productive nation in the history of the planet Earth. We are also the richest and enjoy the greatest standard of living in the history or the planet Earth. I'm proud of that.

Incorrect.

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168662&highlight=standard+of+living

 

[AEON]

Gore is fraud. And believe me, the Republicans have their fair share of frauds as well.

 

[Irvine511]

Only because we are also the most productive nation in the history of the planet Earth. We are also the richest and enjoy the greatest standard of living in the history or the planet Earth. I'm proud of that.

But some people have a problem with that, and it is that very guilt, or envy (depending on if you live here or not) that much of us "skeptics" see as pushing this issue forward more than any science.
Did the Earth warm by 0.7 degrees Celsius in the 20th century?
Yes.
Was this manmade or cyclical?
I'm not sure.
Is this necessarily even a bad thing?
Again I'm not sure.
Shouldn't we be doing something?
What are the costs? What would be the results?

and, as the richest nation on earth -- but not the highest standard of living, Norway wins that -- it is incumbent upon us to not trash that which has given us so much.

and, yes, i hear the whole, "oh yeah? well you're just JEALOUS" that Americans often throw back in the face of criticism. and, often, they're right, it is just jealousy. but that has absolutely nothing to do with carbon emissions.

as for "the costs" of global warming -- well, if you'd like to SCUBA dive Venice, please, continue to pretend there's no problem.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Gore is fraud. And believe me, the Republicans have their fair share of frauds as well.

Does that detract from the issue at all?

 

[BVS]

Gore is fraud. And believe me, the Republicans have their fair share of frauds as well.

I'm curious if you plan on adding to the discussion or if you think an electricity bill speaks for itself.

I'm sure I could find a bill from your past and twist it into hypocricy as well.

 

[INDY500]

But it doesn't change the fact, that we with our over-consumption of fuels and pollution of the air we breath, don't change the future we will haveto live in to our disadvantage.

Depends on who you ask. Today, in 2007, over 2 billion people still don't use electricity to provide lights, heat, cooling or refrigeration. They instead breathe the dirty smoke of wood or dung fires that they use for warmth or cooking. Shall we deny to them that which we enjoy and in fact would consider essential to modern life, in the name of possibly preventing "climate change."
What of their disadvantage?

 

[UberBeaver]

Depends on who you ask. Today, in 2007, over 2 billion people still don't use electricity to provide lights, heat, cooling or refrigeration. They instead breathe the dirty smoke of wood or dung fires that they use for warmth or cooking. Shall we deny to them that which we enjoy and in fact would consider essential to modern life, in the name of possibly preventing "climate change."
What of their disadvantage?

What? Are you saying that by the US (and the rest of the "technologically advanced" world) adjusting the amount of emissions we put in the air this is somehow going to negatively effect the standard of living of someone cooking over a dung fire?

The effect of going with a more environmentally sound lifestyle would not crush the American economy. California is the greenest state in the union and seem to be doing ok. The average household would feel a pinch at first, but eventually it would be absorbed the way any price is absorbed. We're paying more than twice for gas than we did just a few years ago, and the stock maket didn't crash.

I don't understand how anyone can be AGAINST wanting to make things better and cleaner? Please, someone, explain to me what you could possible feel is a valid reason to not wanting to improve the environment?

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Depends on who you ask. Today, in 2007, over 2 billion people still don't use electricity to provide lights, heat, cooling or refrigeration. They instead breathe the dirty smoke of wood or dung fires that they use for warmth or cooking. Shall we deny to them that which we enjoy and in fact would consider essential to modern life, in the name of possibly preventing "climate change."
What of their disadvantage?

I don't understand what you are saying here...

So it's okay to not feel guilty by driving a big SUV (for example) because some person in Africa Can't?

Meanwhille we should feel guilty for abolishing standard light bulbs (for example) becase those same people in Africa will never get the chance to use one?

 

[Irvine511]

Depends on who you ask. Today, in 2007, over 2 billion people still don't use electricity to provide lights, heat, cooling or refrigeration. They instead breathe the dirty smoke of wood or dung fires that they use for warmth or cooking. Shall we deny to them that which we enjoy and in fact would consider essential to modern life, in the name of possibly preventing "climate change."
What of their disadvantage?

and what's going to happen when a billion Chinese and a billion more Indians start to want to live like your average North American or Western European with cars and washing machines?

 

[INDY500]

Hahahaha, got me.

Envy of not living in the US! Great

Yes, our beer is terrible, we only have a short 200 or so years of history to admire, no one knows how to prepare schnitzel, and we have dreadfully slow speed limits on our highways.

Still, not so bad.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I was speaking of over-consumption. Does that ring any bells?

I wouldn't deny anyone a reasonable standard of living. But I would greatly welcome it if we showed them a way to develop without going through the stages we went through.

And it's really very funny. Only because there are also natural effects possibly causing a climatic change we should go on burning the fossil fuels to no good when we have the technology to save some of that, still enjoying the same possibilities.
We are accelerating the climate change, and worsening its effects. Why?
This is the future, we and our children have to live in. Why are we so opportunistic to seeking every excuse we can find, or that gets sponsored by the oil industry, only to deny that we at least could make our future worse.

Even if it was a more questionable hypothesis, that our pollution has an effect on the climate, why should we go on using these questionable, wasting cars, technology and so on.
Only so that we can say in some 30 years, "Oh well, now even I believe that we screwed up.", or the other way round, "Great, I was right and you were wrong!"?

 

[INDY500]

and what's going to happen when a billion Chinese and a billion more Indians start to want to live like your average North American or Western European with cars and washing machines?

Well, we're gonna find out aren't we, as they (and India) are exempt from Kyoto. China alone plans on building over 2000 new coal plants in the next 25 years.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Well, we're gonna find out aren't we, as they (and India) are exempt from Kyoto. China alone plans on building over 2000 new coal plants in the next 25 years.

Well, I guess we're all fucked then... I don't know about the rest of you but I'm going to go out and buy the biggest SUV I can find and run over as many endangered species as I can since the world is pretty much going to blow up in 25 years...

Oh and don't worry, thanks to all the McDonalds I'm chugging back I won't be alive to see this anyhow...

Live fast, die young and leave a beautiful corpse....

 

[Vincent Vega]

Yes, our beer is terrible, we only have a short 200 or so years of history to admire, no one knows how to prepare schnitzel, and we have dreadfully slow speed limits on our highways.

Still, not so bad.

Social security to the minimum, huge costs for higher education, health insurance only when you have the money, hire and fire, less holidays per year, way more murderers each year...

Believe me, not everybody dreams of living in the USA.
You have some beautiful landscape, some nice products and inventions, wonderful people, and so on. Still I prefer the US as a place to make holidays or spent some limited years of my life. For the rest my dream is rather Australia than the USA.
You can make a good living outside the US, and it's funny when some exchange students come back to telling you that hey got asked questions like, "do you have electricity/running water/TV in Germany?" and such.

Regarding the history: Our history started in 1945, on May 9.

All the history before still is the second world war.
Many people really don't get any further than that time.
So 200 years is quite a time of history.

 

[INDY500]

Medeval vs. current times? SUV vs covered wagons?

Seriously, this is what you guys come up with?

New York City will flood and all the polar bears will die if we don't hand over control of our economy to the U.N.

Scare tactics and panic. Is that the best you guys can come up with?

 

[U2Man]

[...]enjoy the greatest standard of living in the history or the planet Earth. I'm proud of that.

a great percentage of your own population would disagree.

 

[UberBeaver]

I don't understand how anyone can be AGAINST wanting to make things better and cleaner? Please, someone, explain to me what you could possible feel is a valid reason to not wanting to improve the environment?

I'm not going to get an answer, am I?

 

[AEON]

I'm curious if you plan on adding to the discussion or if you think an electricity bill speaks for itself.

I'm sure I could find a bill from your past and twist it into hypocricy as well.

When one of the most popular preachers in the US gets caught buying drugs and perhaps paying for homosexual sex – that pastor loses credibility. When a public figure like Al Gore gets exposed for living a life completely contrary to what he preaches, he loses credibility.

I don’t think we expect Mr. Gore to be living in a hemp shack in the woods eating Trader Joe’s Moonberry Jelly. However, I think we should expect Mr. Gore to be a vanguard of the “green” lifestyle (electric car, cutting edge solar power at home...etc).
Is that unfair? Perhaps. But that is another debate.

I will give him some credit however. His invention of the Internet has cut down on much of the military paperwork I used to have to carry around. Now it is all in my AKO account. Thanks Mr. Gore!

 

[UberBeaver]

New York City will flood and all the polar bears will die if we don't hand over control of our economy to the U.N.

Scare tactics and panic. Is that the best you guys can come up with?

Well, it works for White House. Everyone should get a fair shake.

 

[BVS]

New York City will flood and all the polar bears will die if we don't hand over control of our economy to the U.N.

Scare tactics and panic. Is that the best you guys can come up with?

Well whenever anyone states either one of those, come talk to me.

Until then all I see are some folks speaking out of context and little to no facts.

 

[phanan]

And what is Gore using his household for, how many employees are working from his house, etc...

I thought I read somewhere that a lot of his work on this issue is done at home, and that quite a few people who work for him assist there. That was a while ago, though, so my memory might be hazy.

But if that were the case, and he had a group of people who worked for him there, then wouldn't a better comparison be his house vs. where each one of us works?

I'll bet a gazillion bucks the place that I work at consumes a hell of a lot more energy than Gore's place.

 

[U2Man]

I'm not going to get an answer, am I?

from the point of view of society, - yes an improved environment is good. but the individual economic agent is egoistic and chooses his own profits over the common values, such as the environment.

 

[verte76]

Al Gore has taught us alot, whatever his electrical bill is.

 

[INDY500]

a great percentage of your own population would disagree.

I can put you down as feeling "guilty" then?

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

I'm not going to get an answer, am I?

Nope... It pretty much boils down to:

a. It's too hard, the world is already doomed anyhow, it's somebody else's fault, school of thinking

or the always popular (and my personal favourite):

b. There is no proof, I don't believe you, don't make me give up my watefull lifestyle attitude...

 

[U2Man]

I can put you down as feeling "guilty" then?

guilty of what?

 

[BVS]

When one of the most popular preachers in the US gets caught buying drugs and perhaps paying for homosexual sex – that pastor loses credibility. When a public figure like Al Gore gets exposed for living a life completely contrary to what he preaches, he loses credibility.

Once again you avoid the question by stating your opening statement all over again. It's a little habit of yours.

Show me how context may clear up paying for sex and drugs. Can't do it, can you?

My point is you're trying really hard to paint a picture of a hypocrite because it fits your agenda, but you don't have all the facts.

 

[BVS]

I thought I read somewhere that a lot of his work on this issue is done at home, and that quite a few people who work for him assist there. That was a while ago, though, so my memory might be hazy.

But if that were the case, and he had a group of people who worked for him there, then wouldn't a better comparison be his house vs. where each one of us works?

I'll bet a gazillion bucks the place that I work at consumes a hell of a lot more energy than Gore's place.

Yes but sometimes a grainy out of focus picture helps those who want to find fault.