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Old 03-04-2008, 06:46 PM   #46
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Originally posted by DaveC


No kidding. I don't think any of us will ever be able to understand the soldier's frame of mind unless we go. I've got guys in my unit who've been to Afghanistan who've come back genuinely fucked up. We have four soldiers (of a unit of about sixty) there right now. And from all accounts, Iraq is a lot worse.

We don't know anything about this story. Judging these soldiers as inhuman animals and calling for them to be punished based on a twenty-second video is rushing to conclusions and simply shouldn't be done.
And yet, some people are able to, in times of war, maintain their humanity in the face of the same type of stress.

I understand the argument you are putting forward. But I also kind of hate it, because it is possible to make the right choices even in the worst of times. It is what Viktor Frankl spoke of when he said every human being always has the ability to choose their own way, even in response to great evil.
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Old 03-04-2008, 06:48 PM   #47
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Originally posted by U2isthebest


You can't really compare the two. These soldiers joined the military voluntarily knowing full well that they could be sent to war and get injured or killed. They're trained to defend themselves and to kill the enemy. This innocent little puppy can't possibly defend itself or fight back against these soldiers. Our soldiers have seen and suffered awful things for sure, but they have a choice in the matter. This defenseless animal didn't, and those soldiers who participated in this despicable crime should be punished to the fullest extent allowed.

You are so right, that video made my heart skip a beat. Why on earth would they do something like that. I hope their only excuse was that they were doing drugs at the time.
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Old 03-04-2008, 06:52 PM   #48
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Originally posted by anitram


And yet, some people are able to, in times of war, maintain their humanity in the face of the same type of stress.

I understand the argument you are putting forward. But I also kind of hate it, because it is possible to make the right choices even in the worst of times. It is what Viktor Frankl spoke of when he said every human being always has the ability to choose their own way, even in response to great evil.

That's the point I wanted to raise, but I wasn't sure how to express it.
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Old 03-04-2008, 07:01 PM   #49
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Originally posted by ybab gnuthca
This incident happened on Hawaii, not in Iraq.
The Marine shown throwing the puppy is presently based in Hawai'i, but he returned from Iraq in October.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:13 PM   #50
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^ are you kidding...for some reason that seems worse that he was here, I don't know why it just does.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


It is what Viktor Frankl spoke of when he said every human being always has the ability to choose their own way, even in response to great evil.
hey, i have that book.


dbs
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:10 AM   #52
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^ are you kidding...for some reason that seems worse that he was here, I don't know why it just does.
Aside from this being one of the most logically ridiculous things I've ever heard...

The video was shot in Iraq. Hawaii doesn't have a desert.

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Old 03-05-2008, 01:46 AM   #53
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Six soldiers have pleaded guilty in a Townsville court to acts of cruelty against a litter of kittens in 2004.

The Court heard the cruelty occurred at the Lavarack Base on April 10 this year and their actions were blamed on alcohol.

One of the kittens was dragged behind a motorcycle and then crushed under the wheel of a four wheel drive. Three others were set alight.

Magistrate David Glasgow said the six soldiers from the 10th Force Support Battalion had brought disgrace and dishonour to the Army and fined them $2,000 each.

They will also perform 100 hours voluntary work at the RSPCA.

The RSPCA says it is not sure if staff and volunteers in Townsville will want to work with the soldiers.

Mark Townend from the animal welfare group says he cannot say if they will be welcome.

"My staff and the volunteers would have trouble working alongside people who have been so cruel," he said.

"This isn't an accidental .. where they've neglected an animal .. they've been straight out ridiculously cruel and my staff, I don't believe, would work with them."

Two of the soldiers also had their drivers licences suspended for six months.

Mr Glasgow did not record a conviction against the soldiers, noting that many in the community may not think the decision is strong enough.

The soldiers' defence counsel told the court alcohol was the cause of many regrettable acts within the armed forces.

Representing five of the six soldiers, Boris Kleiner said from his experience both as a former reservist and member of the regular Australian Army, that alcohol-fuelled acts of bravado and stupidity were part of the armed forces.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/05/10/1105110.htm
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:59 AM   #54
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Originally posted by U2isthebest


You can't really compare the two. These soldiers joined the military voluntarily knowing full well that they could be sent to war and get injured or killed. They're trained to defend themselves and to kill the enemy. This innocent little puppy can't possibly defend itself or fight back against these soldiers. Our soldiers have seen and suffered awful things for sure, but they have a choice in the matter. This defenseless animal didn't, and those soldiers who participated in this despicable crime should be punished to the fullest extent allowed.
I TOTALLY agree with you!!
That was barbarism pure and simple!
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:11 AM   #55
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Originally posted by gherman
Do you understand how de-sensitized these guys are? They watch there felloe soldiers get killed everyday, they watch civilians get blown up, they kell Iraqi soldiers, see bodies all over the place and body parts all over the place. Do you really think they are in the righ frame of mind and we can sit here in front a computer eating Twinkies and judge them. Give me a break
I agree with this also.
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:14 AM   #56
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Originally posted by DaveC


No kidding. I don't think any of us will ever be able to understand the soldier's frame of mind unless we go. I've got guys in my unit who've been to Afghanistan who've come back genuinely fucked up. We have four soldiers (of a unit of about sixty) there right now. And from all accounts, Iraq is a lot worse.

We don't know anything about this story. Judging these soldiers as inhuman animals and calling for them to be punished based on a twenty-second video is rushing to conclusions and simply shouldn't be done.
Yet ANOTHER POV I agree with.
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Old 03-05-2008, 06:28 AM   #57
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Aside from this being one of the most logically ridiculous things I've ever heard...

The video was shot in Iraq. Hawaii doesn't have a desert.

Actually Hawaii does have some pretty arid areas, especially on the windward? side of the islands. I've even seen cacti and what not .
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:32 AM   #58
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regardless of where this video was shot, THIS SHOULDN'T OF HAPPENED PERIOD! There is no justisfiable reason on this earth for doing what this soldier did... If this is a legitimate video then this guy needs to get punished for his actions!

I am sorry for what these soldiers go thru... it's pure hell but..that doesn't excuse this inhumane action.

<my hubby is active duty Navy and he is just gobsmacked by this..
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:48 AM   #59
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Originally posted by gherman
Do you understand how de-sensitized these guys are? They watch there felloe soldiers get killed everyday, they watch civilians get blown up, they kell Iraqi soldiers, see bodies all over the place and body parts all over the place. Do you really think they are in the righ frame of mind and we can sit here in front a computer eating Twinkies and judge them. Give me a break
i personally believe that this has less to do with what soldiers experience and more to do with just having a stone cold heart. the only uniform michael vick ever wore was a football jersey. who is to say these guys didn't do shit like that back at home? it is a sick, twisted thing, but there's a lot of animal cruelty going on. none of my friends who are or have been there would do something like this. on the other hand, you have underground dog fighting, cock fighting, whatever going on here, people killing animals with their bare hands for the sake of the sport. it's disgusting, but i think it is more related to upbringing than to war.
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:29 AM   #60
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abcnews.com

Was Killing the Puppy a Way of Coping for One Marine?
Stressful Environment May Have Contributed to Marine Apparently Tossing a Dog to His Death
By EMILY FRIEDMAN

March 5, 2008 —

Many war-weary veterans of the Iraq War take kindly to the animals they meet abroad some of them have even gone to great expense and trouble to bring dogs back home with them at the end of their tours of duty.

What, then, provoked one U.S. Marine to let himself be videotaped apparently flinging a yelping puppy over a cliff, bursting into laughter at the sound of the animal's body hitting the ground below? The tape of the apparent incident has rocketed around the Internet, provoking a firestorm of criticism.

The motivation for such an act, if it did indeed occur, may be as complex and deep as the U.S. war that has dragged on for more than four years, experts told ABCNEWS.com. Chief among them: Having to live with the constant fear of being injured or killed might have led this Marine to take his aggression out on a defenseless animal, several psychologists said.

"Most of the time war is about chaos and the fear of being wounded or killed," said David Spiegel, professor and associate chairman of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the Stanford University School of Medicine. "And so you're constantly confronting those fears and one of the ways to confront that may be by showing you're the one that renders other creatures helpless."

"The thought is that 'I'm not the one who gets thrown off a cliff, I'm the one doing it,'" said Spiegel.

Something to Prove

The clip depicting the puppy's horrific treatment garnered tens of thousands of hits on YouTube before it was taken down. The U.S. Marine Corps launched an investigation into the identity of the Marine after it issued a statement calling the apparent act "shocking and deplorable." The videotape's authenticity has not been verified by U.S. authorities.

How much time the Marines shown in the video served abroad is still unknown, but several mental health professionals told ABCNEWS.com that people who treat animals badly may act out because of their oppressive surroundings or sometimes as a result of the shock they might have suffered - be it the horrors of war or an abusive parent during their childhood.

"There may be personality variables that predispose people to [harm animals]," said Allen Enton, the past president of the American Psychological Association's division of family psychology. "But it also may be somehow stimulated by some context like being in a group situation or feeling oppressed and down and wanting to just get back at the world."

Animals are easy targets for angry or disturbed people, said Enton, adding that not having to worry about the animal retaliating makes hurting it that much easier.

The Marines might tape the incident, including their laughter and indifference, when another commented how "mean" it was to the puppy, as an ego booster and a way to feel powerful and in control.

"Somehow documenting it is a way to show people 'look at what we did' and 'look at how brave we are and how strong we are,'" said Enton. "But you have to wonder what has caused them this kind of stress so that they have to react in such a violent way."

"They're on such a power trip about what they're doing that it doesn't dawn on them how disgusting it is," said Stanford's Siegel. "A person can get set to such levels of psychological arousal that ordinary life can seem kind of drab, and the only way to keep yourself feeling kind of good is to do things that are dangerous or anti-social."

Acts of Cruelty Are Rare

Children who are violent toward animals - killing a stray dog or cat, for example - have a heightened risk to be cruel to people, said Scott Lilienfeld, a professor of psychology at Emory University.

"It's well established that one of the best predictors of later violence is cruelty to animals," said Lilienfeld, who declined to comment specifically about the Marines in the puppy video because he has never treated them. "For some kids, [harming animals] might give them an immature sense of power; they may get a kick out of seeing the animal suffer."

But in contrast to this latest incident, most kids would rather hide away and torture the animal, careful not to be caught by parents or adults, said Lilienfeld.

"It's going to be the kind of thing where nobody else is around - kids know it's not socially acceptable," said Lilienfeld.

But even the worst kids don't always hurt animals, he said, which may demonstrate quite how much it takes to harm or kill a dog.

"Cruelty to animals is rare and frankly even a lot of bad kids love animals," said Lilienfeld. "Most people - even callous kids -- have a strong immunity to really hurting dogs and cats. You've got to be really bad."

This trend also works in reverse, he added, meaning that individuals who harm or kill humans may also be more inclined to then hurt animals.

"One of the horrible problems is that we have men and women coming [home] who have participated in horrendous violence," said Stanford's Spiegel. "They've crossed the line [of violence] once, and it makes it easier to cross the line again."
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