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Old 08-15-2006, 09:25 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511
seeing as how i'm 28, you all shuld know thati cheat, lie, steal, have sex, and do terrible things just because it feels good.
I don't think anyone here was saying that, I certainly wasn't. There are generalizations and general observations made all the time in FYM - I have to go on the assumption that they are just that or sometimes I'd feel so insulted I'd never want to come back here.

There are some fantastic teens and 20 somethings, and some horrible 30 and 40 somethings.
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Old 08-15-2006, 09:58 AM   #32
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Please, please - can't we just go and join together in the spirit of wiping out the Boomers thus saving us untold millions of dollars in social welfare
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Old 08-15-2006, 09:59 AM   #33
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i'm glad that the time-honored tradition of one generation beating up on the next in order to make itself seem more important lives on.
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:06 AM   #34
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i'm glad that the time-honored tradition of one generation beating up on the next in order to make itself seem more important lives on.
Sorry you feel that way, I wasn't doing that . I have no desire to make myself seem more important. I give up.
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:07 AM   #35
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Sorry you feel that way, I wasn't doing that . I have no desire to make myself seem more important. I give up.

i didn't say you were.

none of my comments are directed at you.
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:12 AM   #36
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I love most 20 somethings. I will give myself to science for research purposes and spend some time with some-that would be sweet and kind and smart and cute of the male variety At least 27, there has to be a morally decent limit

I just don't think it's beating anyone up to consider any possible changes in moral values and ethics, etc. in generations, as I said before I think it is a general decline amongst all generations due to changes in society and in values.
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:28 AM   #37
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I'm 34 and I agree, but I don't just think it's "kids these days". I think we may be on a slippery slope that started with the Baby Boomers and their rebellion against the Great Depression/WWII generation. A very selfish bunch, the baby boomers, a very self righteous bunch who had selfish and self righteous kids who are now having kids. And with the GD/WWII generation almost gone, there's no longer a moralistic tie to those days.

Plus in a litigious society, where perspective and circumstances can over rule morals, and at the dawn of the information age, where with the click of a mouse we can find out that our heroes are as morally ambiguous as we ourselves are, it's almost impossible to define something as black and white; right and wrong.

And without that definition, well...
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:35 AM   #38
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I just don't think it's beating anyone up to consider any possible changes in moral values and ethics, etc. in generations, as I said before I think it is a general decline amongst all generations due to changes in society and in values.


that i agree with, but the way the thread was framed -- "hey, people my age, aren't the younger ones messed up?" -- was quite confrontational, very us vs. them.

i have actually been thinking about this thread quite a bit, especially at the gym this morning, and i think that nostalgia is very dangerous, and i think people tend to value things like honesty, integrity, and tend to be able to delay instant gratification more as they get older. i know this is true for myself. it's only now, as an adult, that i better understand how the process of working towards a goal is every bit as important as the goal itself.

but i also think that there's a hugely different set of pressures on kids today, and i don't think that kids change, but their circumstances do change and thus how they respond does change.

this is a huge topic, so let's consider two things: cheating and stealing, examined through the lense of cheating in school and stealing via downloading.

the reason most kids cheat in school, i think, is not necessarily because they're lazy, but because they know that they are being judged by a set of highly arbitrary markers. it's insanely difficult to get into college these days, something i don't think people over 40 truly appreciate until it comes time for their children to apply. and the more you understand how the process works -- GPA, SATs, clubs/sports/music -- and you've been taught that college acceptance is the be-all, end-all summation of your childhood (and that important sticker on the car), then the process of learning takes a backseat to the accumulation of various "points" that will make you more attractive to an admissions committee.

it's also vastly easier to cheat than it was 20 years ago. i bet you 20 years ago if you'd all had the same tools as kids today do, you'd have just as many people cheating as today.

as for downloading ... i think this is actually a poor example of stealing. one thing kids today have a lot more of is information, and the more information you have the tougher it is to live by broad pinciples because exceptions and distinctions start to pop up all over the place. when you realize that it costs only pennies to manufacture a CD, and then HMV turns around and tries to get you to buy it at $18.99, and only 3 tracks are any good anyway, it's hard to feel too much sympathy for a massive record company and an insanely overpaid artist if you get those 3 good tracks over Kazaa.

i also think that if corporations (for lack of a better term), which are staffed by people well over 30, would view teens and 20-somethings as anything more than consumers or members of a specific demographic and wouldn't wallpaper our built environment with advertising that celebrates instant gratification, identity-through-consumption, brand-as-lifestyle, and you're-nothing-if-you-dont'-have-our-product, we might see a little less impulsive, i-want-it-all-and-i-want-it-now attitudes from our 20-somethings.

also, don't you think that virtues like patience, and the process i keep mentioning are things that are learned, not received? that the teens and 20-somethings today are going to grow into the 30 and 40-somethings in 20 years who are going to start threads like this?
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Old 08-15-2006, 11:26 AM   #39
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Originally posted by Irvine511
as for downloading ... i think this is actually a poor example of stealing. one thing kids today have a lot more of is information, and the more information you have the tougher it is to live by broad pinciples because exceptions and distinctions start to pop up all over the place. when you realize that it costs only pennies to manufacture a CD, and then HMV turns around and tries to get you to buy it at $18.99, and only 3 tracks are any good anyway, it's hard to feel too much sympathy for a massive record company and an insanely overpaid artist if you get those 3 good tracks over Kazaa.
I really think this is an interesting perspective - and offers insight on the paradigm shift for a younger generation. As a 40+ year old, I read this as a justification for stealing, not an example of something that is not stealing. I agree that the recording industry is greedy and does a poor job of marketing their material. The response of taking what we want on our own terms still is stealing according to my understanding.
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:01 PM   #40
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I really think this is an interesting perspective - and offers insight on the paradigm shift for a younger generation. As a 40+ year old, I read this as a justification for stealing, not an example of something that is not stealing. I agree that the recording industry is greedy and does a poor job of marketing their material. The response of taking what we want on our own terms still is stealing according to my understanding.


what's the difference between my downloading a few tracks versus my making a mixed CD for my mother for her birthday?
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:06 PM   #41
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Are "we" stealing more because we're morally corrupt or because you dinosaurs had no Internets?

It's a serious question. I mean, is there also not a factor of opportunity that we have to consider?
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:32 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Irvine511
what's the difference between my downloading a few tracks versus my making a mixed CD for my mother for her birthday?
How did you acquire the tracks for the mixed CD?

The record industry considers both to be theft.

Acquiring something (primary acquisition) without paying for it - how is it not stealing?
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:34 PM   #43
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Originally posted by anitram
Are "we" stealing more because we're morally corrupt or because you dinosaurs had no Internets?

It's a serious question. I mean, is there also not a factor of opportunity that we have to consider?
Is the factor more opportunity to steal, the relative ease of stealing (us dinosaurs had to take something out of a brick and mortar shop to steal), or does an artist lose their rights because they employ digital media?
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:38 PM   #44
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No, I don't think they lose their rights. I wasn't arguing that anyway.

I'm just saying, if 20 years ago you guys had laptops, DVD burners, torrents, Napster, etc, I absolutely believe the exact same thing would be going on that goes on today.

After all, piracy in Asia is a long-loved tradition, and was thriving back when there were tapes and VHS. It was not my generation that was pirating in Hong Kong 15 years ago, so it seems to me that this isn't generational at all, it's more of a matter of how easy it has become.
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:41 PM   #45
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How did you acquire the tracks for the mixed CD?

The record industry considers both to be theft.

Acquiring something (primary acquisition) without paying for it - how is it not stealing?


the tracks acquired for the mixed CD came from my old CDs, some downloads, and some tracks that i ripped from mixed CDs that other people had made for me.

at some point, someone paid for the track, and it was passed along.

the record industry would consider most acts of creativity that they cannot control -- such as my making mixed CDs -- to be theft because it means greater profits for them.

what if i taped the last season of The Sopranos off HBO and gave a copy of it to my friend just down the street.

is that stealing?

and what is the "thing" we are talking about? can i physically hold the tracks in my hand? can i contain music in my hands?

i've paid for the blank CD. i've paid for some of the songs on the compiliation. i've paid for the hardware that allows me to burn the CD.

or is it that things like movies, music, television shows -- what you're really paing for is the delivery system of the "product," and not the "product" itself.

have i puchased Achtung Baby -- or have i purchased the CD through which i can listen to Achtung Baby?

who else do i have to pay?
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