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Old 01-04-2005, 02:55 PM   #166
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
I don't agree that this kind of event is inconsistent with the existence of a loving God, but I also don't agree that God is not to be questioned. Maybe I draw this more from a Jewish tradition than a Christian one, but I always liked a Jewish conception of conversation with God. The Jews I know are very comfortable with doubt, conflict, even anger as far as God goes, and they believe that "having it out" with God eventually makes their faith stronger and their relationship with God closer.

There are some great images of that kind of struggle in the OT--Jacob wrestling the angel is one of my (and Bono's, too, I think--LOL) favorite Bible stories ever. And the book of Job is almost one lengthy argument with God--carried on by Job, a righteous man who loses everything and finally wants to know why. And he does actually get some answers.

Is God "answerable" to us in the way that a child is to a parent? No, of course not. But I think that it's irresponsible of us to simply sit back and say, "Oh, whatever, it's God's will." It might well be God's will, but to not struggle with that, to not continue to ask questions of oneself and of God and of our fellow persons of faith, is a cop-out. Albert Einstein it was, I believe, who said that God would not have bestowed us with reason if God did not expect us to use it.
Just wanted to say I really appreciated this post pax!
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Old 01-04-2005, 03:08 PM   #167
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Originally posted by babyman
if you believe in god you believe the bible, because he wrote the bible,
BEEP BEEP BEEP>....WRONG ANSWER......Play again....


Not everyone believes God wrote the bible. Inspired, yes, wrote it, no.
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Old 01-04-2005, 03:29 PM   #168
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Just wanted to say I really appreciated this post pax!
Thanks for saying so.
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Old 01-04-2005, 03:29 PM   #169
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isn't it a huge contradiction, not everyone who believes in god believes the bible? if you believe in god you believe the bible, because he wrote the bible, and we must act in our lives following what the bible teaches us, the bible is god's word
uhm God wrote the bible......don't think so huh
the people wrote the bible, foolish people we are who says it's not an invented story??????
I believe it did happen many centuries ago but I'm sure God even didn't wrote 5% of the bible
I don't know if you know this but Jesus was a jew and he was born in March not in December...............just to take the facts clear
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Old 01-04-2005, 06:23 PM   #170
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we've had God/bible/authorship/literal vs. allegorical discussions in other threads.

to me, so far, the most interesting thing that has come across at this point is the journey towards or away from faith, and how this disaster -- and others, be they massive like 9-11 or personal like the death of a close relative -- play into whatever spirtual path you see yourself on, or have walked away from.

at this point, i think the moral thing to do is to yell at God, to be angry with God, to demand the "why" when so many are suffering and, as we see in another thread, some are kidnapping orphans and selling them into the unspeakable SE Asian sex trade (funded by Western tourists). while there may be an answer, it's not likely we're going to get one from God (if there is a God) in this lifetime, but the *process* of dealing, of comprehending, of reconciling, is very important. to sit back and say, "it was God's will" or "it was just Karma" or "it was just the shifting of the Earth's plates" is to miss something very intrinsic to being human. when i was in college, a course i wanted to take, but didn't have time to, was called "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People: The Problem of Evil in Western Culture." why do bad things happen? why do innocents suffer? why do the poor always suffer more? to seek a monocausal explanation -- God, Nature, Karma, a mixture of all, or wacky conspiracy theories ... God being a possible conspiracy theory -- for a tragedy that has so many layers of pain and suffering (though with the end result, innocent people are dead) is to cop-out.

to the faithful, i'd say that God wants you to question him right now, he wants you to be angry with him, he wants you to question Him.
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Old 01-04-2005, 06:25 PM   #171
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
BEEP BEEP BEEP>....WRONG ANSWER......Play again....


Not everyone believes God wrote the bible. Inspired, yes, wrote it, no.
Wrong?

Inspired essentially means the words are God's, not man's.

Welcome to FYM NotAnEasyThing
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Old 01-04-2005, 06:33 PM   #172
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Is it just me, or does this conversation have no purpose or outcome? I don't say that to stop the thread, it's interesting to read...but essentially no-one will change their mind. To someone who believes already in a sovereign, all-loving God, this disaster all makes perfect sense and can be explained by things within their religion. To someone who doesn't accept this God (necessarily), all the Bible quotes and hypothetical intentions of God in the world aren't going to mean much...

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Old 01-04-2005, 06:51 PM   #173
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Originally posted by Irvine511
we've had God/bible/authorship/literal vs. allegorical discussions in other threads.

to me, so far, the most interesting thing that has come across at this point is the journey towards or away from faith, and how this disaster -- and others, be they massive like 9-11 or personal like the death of a close relative -- play into whatever spirtual path you see yourself on, or have walked away from.

at this point, i think the moral thing to do is to yell at God, to be angry with God, to demand the "why" when so many are suffering and, as we see in another thread, some are kidnapping orphans and selling them into the unspeakable SE Asian sex trade (funded by Western tourists). while there may be an answer, it's not likely we're going to get one from God (if there is a God) in this lifetime, but the *process* of dealing, of comprehending, of reconciling, is very important. to sit back and say, "it was God's will" or "it was just Karma" or "it was just the shifting of the Earth's plates" is to miss something very intrinsic to being human. when i was in college, a course i wanted to take, but didn't have time to, was called "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People: The Problem of Evil in Western Culture." why do bad things happen? why do innocents suffer? why do the poor always suffer more? to seek a monocausal explanation -- God, Nature, Karma, a mixture of all, or wacky conspiracy theories ... God being a possible conspiracy theory -- for a tragedy that has so many layers of pain and suffering (though with the end result, innocent people are dead) is to cop-out.

to the faithful, i'd say that God wants you to question him right now, he wants you to be angry with him, he wants you to question Him.
9-11, sex market Asia, wars, nature disasters- Gods will??????????? just Karma??????? bullshit
9-11, sex market, wars......it is/was all because of us, we the people are doing bad things...........how hard is to realize that it can't be that hard huh........it was Gods will, whahahaha He has nothing to do with this
and also not with nature disasters, the earth moves for over 300 million year just look in the history books how the positions of the countries has changed nature is a strange something just like the gravity

we can argue about this for years without getting a answer but it's just waiting to the next disaster....it won't take long anymore uhm what did I said it has already started
look to Africa the famine there,wars etc. we were so stupid with getting richer and richer without caring about the Africans
yeah Live Aid....but this was waaaaay to late, we must wait until their going to be many dead people and then we take action....
what kind of world do we live in??? what kind of world is this??? one thing is for sure I'm not happy with being a part of this world
stupid foolish people which don't know what they're doing

they're also many good people but the majority doesn't care about something unless there are many victims

we can not tolerate this, we've fucked up many times we just can not fail again it's just not acceptable, what would your kids and grandkids say to you?
they would be ashamed that your didn't do anything

why would God take care for us?
the people must take care for each other....
we're one but we're not the same we get to carry each other carry each other that what's all about nothing more nothing less it can't be that hard....................
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:07 PM   #174
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Originally posted by Irvine511

to the faithful, i'd say that God wants you to question him right now, he wants you to be angry with him, he wants you to question Him.
And to those who aren't even sure if they believe in God or not yet arrogantly think they know what this God wants for another, please stop.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:11 PM   #175
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
Is it just me, or does this conversation have no purpose or outcome? I don't say that to stop the thread, it's interesting to read...but essentially no-one will change their mind. To someone who believes already in a sovereign, all-loving God, this disaster all makes perfect sense and can be explained by things within their religion. To someone who doesn't accept this God (necessarily), all the Bible quotes and hypothetical intentions of God in the world aren't going to mean much...

why discuss anything then?

do you not learn from those you disagree with?

the point of FYM is not to convert, nor to preach to the converted. it's to share ideas and challenge your own assumptions. the point, i think, is to always, always, always challenge dogma -- whether on the right or on the left, the secular or the religious. defend your thougths and your beliefs, and maybe strenghten them or weaken them.

you're right: no amount of scriptural referencing or parsing of words in the Bible is going to mean much to me; but that doesn't mean it doesn't explain volumes about how people different from me think.

the end result is that while i may continue to disagree with it, and find my reasons to disagree strengthened, i walk away with more respect for those with whom i have disagreements.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:16 PM   #176
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


And to those who aren't even sure if they believe in God or not yet arrogantly think they know what this God wants for another, please stop.
yes, why discuss anything then?

how dare we presume to place ourselves in another's shoes and try on different systems of thought. how *arrogant*.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:21 PM   #177
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Originally posted by Irvine511

yes, why discuss anything then?


how dare we presume to place ourselves in another's shoes and try on different systems of thought.
I don't think that's really what you're doing. I just keep hearing that you're angry and so we should all be angry and any other response is somehow less valid. I've been discussing things on this forum for years; I enjoy discussions--I just don't see this one going anywhere at this point although there have been some beautiful posts throughout.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:26 PM   #178
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I don't think that's really what you're doing. I just keep hearing that you're angry and so we should all be angry and any other response is somehow less valid. I've been discussing things on this forum for years; I enjoy discussions--I just don't see this one going anywhere at this point although there have been some beautiful posts throughout.
then ask the moderator to shut it down.

you are right -- i do think anger is the moral response. but by all means, disagree with me. and please read my posts more closely.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:35 PM   #179
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then ask the moderator to shut it down.

you are right -- i do think anger is the moral response. but by all means, disagree with me. and please read my posts more closely.
Oh I don't think it should be closed down just because the discussion isn't going any where for me, I should have said--perhaps others are enjoying it. I do read your posts closely but it's true I don't have a lot of time these days, so perhaps I have missed some finer points. Anyway, carry on, everyone.
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:41 PM   #180
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
To someone who believes already in a sovereign, all-loving God, this disaster all makes perfect sense and can be explained by things within their religion. To someone who doesn't accept this God (necessarily), all the Bible quotes and hypothetical intentions of God in the world aren't going to mean much...
but I want to know how you trust on God....why do people believe in Him???? that's what I want to know what's their fundamendation of their religy, any religy for what kind of reason do people believe in him.......

I'm not sure if I believe in God......
a loving God....that's again bullshit who says that God must do things to be friends with everybody??
for everyone who believes in the Bible here's a quote
'Gods weighs are inscrutable'

if I scared some people of then I offer my apologise, I just want to discuss about it but I'm angry at the people yes because how could they just let millions people die??????
that just won't fit into my brain
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