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Old 11-14-2004, 12:28 PM   #16
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Terrorists are going to hate us whether we allow gay marriage or not

I'll keep my tongue bit on some of the attitudes towards gays in here so not to start a theological discussion on the morality of homosexuality.
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Old 11-14-2004, 12:34 PM   #17
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I think you're right about the terrorists hating us whether or not we allow it. Personally, I would like to see a reform before our society goes even further out of hand, and I refer to a number of issues.
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Old 11-14-2004, 01:19 PM   #18
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U2Dem,

I kinda would like to start a theological discussion on the morality of homosexual.

Wanna?

I'm afraid that I'll get banned as a homophobe though, because I don't believe it is a lifestyle that should be celebrated. And apparently anyone that has this belief in FYM is considered a homophobe (not sure why).

Mark
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Old 11-14-2004, 02:02 PM   #19
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Can I get into this? People who think that homosexuality is wrong are simply from the school of thought that marriage is strictly for procreation. This is the traditional Judaeo-Christian school of thought. However, there is also a school of thought that marriage is mainly for companionship. This idea is older than some might think. It came in in the late Middle Ages. Christine de Pizan, Europe's first professional woman writer, who lived in the late fourteenth and early fifteenth century, subscribed to this view. She was unfortunate enough to lose her husband, whom she loved dearly, after only ten years of marriage. Keep in mind that in those days marriage was often used for political and economic reasons. Now, these early "marriage as companionship" advocates were not flaming radicals. Christine was a devout Catholic who has been criticized by some modern feminists as too conservative. They would have been startled to see their idea taken later to make the idea of divorce more socially acceptable. Gay marriage? They never thought of such a thing. That idea *is* fairly modern. But it's based on the "companionship" notion. There is a difference between believing that marriage is for procreation and hating gays. There are some people who don't understand this. They generalize too much and make the situation too stark.
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Old 11-14-2004, 02:04 PM   #20
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You can feel free to start that thread, and you're free to feel that way. But I'll be completely open about the fact that such a thread would be closely moderated, and if it starts going away from a theological/moral discussion and towards unkind/hateful remarks about gays, it will be closed. Period.

Like I said, there was a double standard allowed to exist in FYM about gays. We wouldn't allow postings say that all Jews are going to hell, that black people can't be trusted around children, whatever. We're not going to allow it about gay people. There are gay members of this forum and members who have gay friends and family members.

That is all.
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Old 11-14-2004, 02:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
I'm afraid that I'll get banned as a homophobe though, because I don't believe it is a lifestyle that should be celebrated. And apparently anyone that has this belief in FYM is considered a homophobe (not sure why).

Mark
In my opinion, it doesn't make you a homophobe just because you disagree with the lifestyle. That alone seems like a good topic to debate.
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Old 11-14-2004, 02:55 PM   #22
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I understand, pax. Folks, we need to keep this discussion philosophical. The split second it gets personal in any way it's fd. So, to the people who disapprove of the gay lifestyle, what is it in particular that makes you think it's wrong? It's OK if you think that marriage is mainly for procreation. This doesn't mean you hate gays. It just means you have certain moral values about the concept of marriage.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:06 PM   #23
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Gay marriage by the state is not a theological issue, if gays wanted to get marriage in your church and your particular church was opposed to gay marriage then it becomes a theological issue.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:17 PM   #24
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We are one of the most conservative developed nations on Earth. Even when there are liberals in the White House and in Congress, the left in America is to the right of the left in Europe and Asia, etc etc.

I hate how 'right' this country is. I disagree with banning gay marriage, I think it's another example of how, specifically the conservatives in power right now, are trying to strip people of their rights. They want to ban civil unions too. I could give a laundy list of others, but I'd be getting off-topic.

The way I see it, the thing that separates this administration from previous conservative administrations, that makes us as a country look so DISGUSTINGLY conservative in the context of the international community, is that Bush and his administration are very, very closed-minded. When the most powerful man in the world is so repulsively narrow-minded, and throws out asinine statements like 'you're either with us or you're with the terrorists', or when he shows his blatent disinterest in anything having to do with diplomacy, or when he blatently tries to impose his own religious beliefs on the law, that's what turns the international community off.

Verte mentioned being an artist and how that would effect him(her?). I'm not an artist per se, but I'm a very artistic person and I can totally see where Verte is coming from. Censorship is rearing its ugly head now more than ever and I have the sick feeling that Bush, while perhaps he's not exactly behind it per se, he's probably supporting it 100%. Censorship is wrong, period. When an artist makes a piece of art, whether it be a painting or a poem/story or a piece of music or sculpture or anything else, what they are trying to do is take whatever they're feeling while they're making that art, and make something that, when seen/heard/read/felt by other people, will re-create in them that same feeling/emotion. If any piece of art is censored, then you really need to scratch out the artist's name on it and sign it 'FCC' or 'so-and-so school district' or whatever. Because the censored piece of art was made by them, not the artist, and the censored piece of art is no longer conveying the feeling/emotion that the artist had intended it to.

Does that sound right to you? It doesn't to me. This country is too 'right' for me, and as it appears, for most of the world. I would very much like to travel to European cities like Paris, Berlin, London, Dublin, and see what the political climates there are like.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:29 PM   #25
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See again people see the rest of the world as simply Europe. Now America may be a conservative country among these liberal democracies but it has absolutely nothing compared to the religious "conservatism" (read despotism) of Saudi Arabia, Iran or Nigeria. That is the face of the world, a harsh place where people die for petty reasons and an unjust power system really does rely on dissedents dissapearing in the middle of the night.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:34 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Gay marriage by the state is not a theological issue, if gays wanted to get marriage in your church and your particular church was opposed to gay marriage then it becomes a theological issue.
I agree with this.

A theological debate to me is interesting, because I find religion and theology and dogma to be interesting things.

But I absolutely place no worth on theology as a determinant of legal issues in this country. People are free to have faith, but their faith is irrelevant to me when it comes to the law and constitution. It's just that simple - I believe in the absolute separation of church and state and do not believe that anyone's faith, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc has any legal value in a secular state. Now if you were living in a theocratic state, then yes, your discussion of theology would be much more encompassing.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:37 PM   #27
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Now America may be a conservative country among these liberal democracies but it has absolutely nothing compared to the religious "conservatism" (read despotism) of Saudi Arabia, Iran or Nigeria.
Those places are despotic states, as you say. But God forbid the day should come when we are actually patting ourselves on the back for being better than them, because that's not exactly saying much.

I think what is really interesting is that Canada, which is the closest nation to the USA in terms of location, language and the shared border, is such a starkly different place when it comes to religion and generally, conservative views.

For example, people argue that "values" won George Bush the election. In Canada, you bring up those same sort of values in a federal election and you are guaranteed toast. It's a death knell and the Conservatives here know it.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:47 PM   #28
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My point was that for some reason, terrorists find the USA to be a godless society, and unfortunately, all they see in this country is how we demoralize our women with hip hop culture, flaunt the worst of us on reality TV, and elsewhere. We should make an effort to prevent them from being so angry at us, and I've always found that our culture strikes a chord with them.
So you support appeasing terrorists by trying to prevent them feeling anger towards America due to the 'godless' nature of American society? Does this extend to foreign policy? Perhaps if America were to reconsider some aspects of her foreign policy terrorists would feel less anger towards America too.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:47 PM   #29
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I am not trying to make the US look good by comparison, maybe a line.

The Line of Conservatism

European Countries -- New Zealand -- Australia --- United States ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SA, Iran, Nigeria etc.

So when people feel the need to say that the USA is a theocracy it is such a stretch, practically the same thing as saying that every one of those other countries are theocracies because when you weigh up the fundamentals they are all pretty damn close.
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:52 PM   #30
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My point was that for some reason, terrorists find the USA to be a godless society, and unfortunately, all they see in this country is how we demoralize our women with hip hop culture, flaunt the worst of us on reality TV, and elsewhere. We should make an effort to prevent them from being so angry at us, and I've always found that our culture strikes a chord with them.
Total foolishness, the United States should stand for individual liberty and freedom; freedom of religion, freedom of speech and expression. Firstly using terrorism as an excuse to pursue a social agenda is dodgy, secondly appeasement will not work with these groups, they will see weakness in your actions and if you want to show the world how weak and cowardly America is then there is nothing better than bending over, abandoning your principles and asking the agressor to be gentle.
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