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Old 06-15-2016, 02:22 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Sorry I had to go to bed. Didn't have a chance to address Moonlit Angel bringing up John Q. A Rasmussen poll found only 6% of respondents found the news media to be Very Trustworthy. This was the all-time low I was referring to. According to this survey John Q Public encompasses all political ideologies. Moonlit and Diemen, to what extent to you trust the media?
My issue with the "John Q" comment was more with the implication that our opinions don't really count because we might not go with what the supposed majority of the public (which, as has been noted here, isn't quite as Trump-happy as you want to believe, especially of late) thinks. That may not be how you intended it, but that's how it read.

As for the media, well, I don't watch any of the three major cable news networks with any sort of regularity, mainly because they're more fluff than substance (and in CNN's case, they're ridiculously obsessed with their on screen graphics to the point of annoyance). Any news I look at tends to come from newspapers (local, state, and national), news magazines, or random online articles that catch my eye, as well as the local news when I think to check it out.

Even then, though, I don't blindly accept everything I read, because obviously bias exists and some sites go heavy with the click-bait titles only for the actual article to sound less salacious than the headline implied. I do check around to see where the similarities and differences in the stories lie, and where the story is coming from, and things of that sort. I hesitate to dismiss all media as untrustworthy spin because of the actions of some less than honorable journalists, though.

But that being said, that's the public's opinion of the media. The president cannot afford to have the same view of them as your average citizen does, because they'll engage with them a hell of a lot more intimately than the public ever will-that's part of the job they signed on for. Any presidential candidate worth their salt should know going in that they're going to have to deal with the press at some point. They'll encounter biased journalists, they'll encounter people who confront them about various issues.

A mature candidate would come back at those people with the actual facts when a shady journalist tries to trick or trap them. A mature candidate would be willing to engage with them, because part of the president's job is working with people he (or she, in the case of Hilary) may not agree with or like. A mature candidate does not throw temper tantrums on Twitter because they were misquoted (supposedly), or challenge journalists to a fight, or ban them from conferences (the only time I could see a ban actually being acceptable is if the journalist's credentials were fraudulent and they weren't a legit journalist). If Trump can't handle the press like an adult, then he shouldn't have gotten into politics in the first place.

Seriously, if this is how Trump handles the press, like I said earlier, how the hell will he handle world leaders who challenge/mock/misquote him? I shudder to think of the possibilities.

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Addressing other concerns. Recently Trump pulled the credentials of the Washington Post. His defense is that he gives a quote on live TV critical of The Administration, The Post turns around and misquotes him along the lines 'that Obama is in bed with ISIS'. If an acquaintance or co-worker treated you that way you would get angry and take them out of your circle of trust.
Yeah, except in this case, that's not a lie. He may not have come right out and said those specific words, but you cannot deny that that's exactly what he was insinuating. Keep in mind this is the same guy who went on and on with the birther shit with Obama a number of years ago. He's stirring up the base who still thinks Obama is "not one of us", "not a true American".
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:24 PM   #887
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We've got what, two Trump supporters in here? Versus everyone else who regularly posts? That ratio is maybe 2-20 or even more lopsided than that.

Ever since Trump came on the scene for this election cycle, people have been questioning out loud who would support him, where these people come from, etc. Myself included. And yet he marches on stage after after stage. Seems clear to me these Trump supporters, grudging or not, do exist in substantial numbers.
Yes ratio wise we're not an accurate representation of the US. And yes Trump draws a crowd, but overall when you look at the US as a whole he doesn't have the support many are trying to portray.
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:29 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Sorry I had to go to bed. Didn't have a chance to address Moonlit Angel bringing up John Q. A Rasmussen poll found only 6% of respondents found the news media to be Very Trustworthy. This was the all-time low I was referring to. According to this survey John Q Public encompasses all political ideologies. Moonlit and Diemen, to what extent to you trust the media?
I'm trying really hard to follow your logic here. So are you saying we're not John Q because you think Interference = people who trust media?
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Addressing other concerns. Recently Trump pulled the credentials of the Washington Post. His defense is that he gives a quote on live TV critical of The Administration, The Post turns around and misquotes him along the lines 'that Obama is in bed with ISIS'. If an acquaintance or co-worker treated you that way you would get angry and take them out of your circle of trust.


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If Trump were misquoted, which he wasn't there's documentation to prove it, he wouldn't be the first. So why does he get to act like the child when the rest of act like adults and accept responsibilities for our actions? The press is not your coworker or friend.
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:43 PM   #889
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I see your point. My argument is that I don't see the blowback of pulling credentials in the same way you do. He can do that for now and accept the risk that goes along with it. I don't he can pull credentials from the WH press room if he were to become President. That would be unbecoming of the office. The concerns brought up by you are valid. He won't get away with what Woodrow Wilson did.


After this back and forth following Orlando between Obama/Hillary and Trump I suspect Trump will move the needle past his LCD supporters.

Obama's recent statements follow his MO. That's to be expected. What annoys me is that he pivots to blame America for the sins of our past. Yes, we had slavery, Jim Crow, and Japanese internment camps.

When it comes to a Muslim extremist attack like Orlando or San Bernardino he sounds more like a defense attorney. Plays to jury to look inward and question America's injustices. Politicizing the national prayer breakfast telling Christians 'to get off their high horse' citing the bloodshed of the Crusades. It can be argued the Christian response was brought about by Muslim encroachment on the Byzantine empire of modern day Turkey and attacks on pilgrims visiting the Holy Land.

In the end the jury will issue their verdict on November 6th.

Wonder if Obama, Kerry, Clinton have James Taylor on speed dial to see if he's available for closing arguments. Just like he was sent to Paris in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks. 'You've Got a Friend' diplomacy.


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OK... so let's say that you're right, and Obama is being a silly goose by not immediately confirming radical Islam in the two attacks you mentioned. This Orlando case so far looks like anything but self radicalization, like San Bernardino or Boston, but let's just say that it is... just for argument's sake.

What does that change about the gun issue? What does it change about Sandy Hook, Charleston, Aurora, Columbine, Virginia Tech? What does it change about the NRA and the right blocking a bill, sponsored by a very hawkish Republican mind you, that would prevent anyone on the No Fly List from purchasing a gun?

This is not a one trick pony. Yes, we have to be ever vigilant against Islamic extremism abroad and self radicalization at home. No question. I'll even agree that there are many on the left who downplay the problem. I don't happen to think Obama or Hillary do... many on the far left think they're way too hawkish whole you're saying they do nothing, but whatever... There's also a mental illness issue. There's also the stupid ass media who keep plastering these guy's faces all over the place after every one of them, encouraging those with mental illnesses to copy cat episodes. The hatred that still exists in this country towards homosexuality and race. All of these things are true. They're not necessarily separate issues. Because one thing is true doesn't exclude the others.

And they're all tied together by the gun. Without the just embarrassingly easy access to weapons of mass death in this country, many of these tragedies would not have happened; no matter if it's a Christian fundamentalist attacking an abortion clinic, an Islamic fundamentalist attacking a holiday party, or a fucked up white kid attacking a bunch of toddlers.

It's the fucking guns, and yes, it IS our country that's the problem when it comes to fucking guns. Just because other issues also exist doesn't change what is an undeniable fact.
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:45 PM   #890
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Yeah, except in this case, that's not a lie. He may not have come right out and said those specific words, but you cannot deny that that's exactly what he was insinuating. Keep in mind this is the same guy who went on and on with the birther shit with Obama a number of years ago. He's stirring up the base who still thinks Obama is "not one of us", "not a true American".

The original birther argument was being circulated Clinton surrogates during the contested 2008 primary. Basically channeling the conspiracy theories of the time.

Back to John Q. I was recalling my knowledge of the poll I referenced. In a response To BVS (who to his credit is a skilled jujitsu debater in FYM). In the heat of our battles I was making the point that he doesn't represent John Q and lumped many posters with it. The term John Q Public is old timey label newspaper editors used in the past to satisfy their readers. I probably picked it up watching a movie.

I love the scene in the HBO movie Recount where John Hurt (Warren Christopher) refers to the NYT as Johnny Apple and how they want this resolved quickly and not go down the route of court lawsuits as suggested by Kevin Spacey.




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Old 06-15-2016, 02:49 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
I see your point. My argument is that I don't see the blowback of pulling credentials in the same way you do. He can do that for now and accept the risk that goes along with it. I don't he can pull credentials from the WH press room if he were to become President. That would be unbecoming of the office. The concerns brought up by you are valid. He won't get away with what Woodrow Wilson did.


After this back and forth following Orlando between Obama/Hillary and Trump I suspect Trump will move the needle past his LCD supporters.

Obama's recent statements follow his MO. That's to be expected. What annoys me is that he pivots to blame America for the sins of our past. Yes, we had slavery, Jim Crow, and Japanese internment camps.

When it comes to a Muslim extremist attack like Orlando or San Bernardino he sounds more like a defense attorney. Plays to jury to look inward and question America's injustices. Politicizing the national prayer breakfast telling Christians 'to get off their high horse' citing the bloodshed of the Crusades. It can be argued the Christian response was brought about by Muslim encroachment on the Byzantine empire of modern day Turkey and attacks on pilgrims visiting the Holy Land.

In the end the jury will issue their verdict on November 6th.

Wonder if Obama, Kerry, Clinton have James Taylor on speed dial to see if he's available for closing arguments. Just like he was sent to Paris in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks. 'You've Got a Friend' diplomacy.


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Really? I think it's the exact opposite. Like exact. Opposite. Polls I heard this morning much prefer the Obama/Clinton handling of this event and disapproval of Trump, who is absolute playing to the LCD crowd by insinuating that Obama is in on terrorist attacks. He sounds like Alex Jones or some garden variety lunatic posting on a FoxNews article than the presidential nominee of one of the two major political parties in the most powerful nation on earth.
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:54 PM   #892
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Headache I support ideas that have been floated such as family members seeking to prevent a relative from doing damage by getting a court injunction blocking them from getting a gun.

Right now Congress is debating a bill that would prevent those on the Terrorism Watch list from purchasing guns or explosive components. Seems like a Bi-Partisan no brainer that I can get behind.

The no-Fly list is a bit trickier. Whoever is in charge of it needs to clean up their data collection, where elderly folks and kids mistakenly end up on the list. Can't get behind it now until those glitches are resolved.


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Old 06-15-2016, 02:59 PM   #893
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Do presidential candidates normally do press conferences? Is it weird that Hilary isn't doing any, or is Trump just doing them because it will get the media talking about him again after his name has disappeared from the news for 20 seconds?
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:07 PM   #894
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Do presidential candidates normally do press conferences? Is it weird that Hilary isn't doing any, or is Trump just doing them because it will get the media talking about him again after his name has disappeared from the news for 20 seconds?
Yes. Probably a combination of that.
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:08 PM   #895
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Gotcha.
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:10 PM   #896
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Really? I think it's the exact opposite. Like exact. Opposite. Polls I heard this morning much prefer the Obama/Clinton handling of this event and disapproval of Trump, who is absolute playing to the LCD crowd by insinuating that Obama is in on terrorist attacks. He sounds like Alex Jones or some garden variety lunatic posting on a FoxNews article than the presidential nominee of one of the two major political parties in the most powerful nation on earth.

Give it another week and we will see where the polling is at. Interesting to see if there is any movement on who is best on Security. My prediction is Trump goes up on that point. Or you can be correct.

Predicting the outcome of the ebbs and flows of the race is what is fascinating to me. That's why I watch Predictit.org. As I said once before when it comes to predictions I see myself as 'The Red Team' of the forum that can offer a different set of conclusions. We get in our ideological entanglements, but as I said before I've learned to play by the rules and not get personal. That being said I'm not a fan of being lumped into bigotry label by association with Trump, but I brush it off.


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Old 06-15-2016, 03:12 PM   #897
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The original birther argument was being circulated Clinton surrogates during the contested 2008 primary. Basically channeling the conspiracy theories of the time.
I only ever heard it from Trump, but even if that's the case that it did start with those people, he still ran with that bullshit and further fueled it despite knowing it had no basis in fact. That's a horrible thing to do. He should've called those people out instead of adding to and further spouting similar crap.

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Back to John Q. I was recalling my knowledge of the poll I referenced. In a response To BVS (who to his credit is a skilled jujitsu debater in FYM). In the heat of our battles I was making the point that he doesn't represent John Q and lumped many posters with it. The term John Q Public is old timey label newspaper editors used in the past to satisfy their readers. I probably picked it up watching a movie.
I know where the term come from. I just don't get how, because we happen to be a fairly left-leaning forum, we're still not part of "John Q. Public". There are people outside this forum who DO think like we do, too, regardless of whether or not they're the majority.

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Obama's recent statements follow his MO. That's to be expected. What annoys me is that he pivots to blame America for the sins of our past. Yes, we had slavery, Jim Crow, and Japanese internment camps.

When it comes to a Muslim extremist attack like Orlando or San Bernardino he sounds more like a defense attorney. Plays to jury to look inward and question America's injustices. Politicizing the national prayer breakfast telling Christians 'to get off their high horse' citing the bloodshed of the Crusades. It can be argued the Christian response was brought about by Muslim encroachment on the Byzantine empire of modern day Turkey and attacks on pilgrims visiting the Holy Land.
He's not wrong. Yes, Islamic extremism is a serious issue worth paying attention to, for sure.

But our country does need to take responsibility for our role in these horrific shootings, too. And Christians DEFINITELY need to get off their high horses with the "Islam is a religion of hatred" attitude, because they've been just as horrible with their attitudes towards the LGBT community. To name a few significantly more recent examples of that religion's negative side:

-"I don't have to serve gay people because of my religion."
-The ludicrous boogeyman "straight man sneaking into the girls' bathroom" argument they're trying to come up with in regards to the trans debate of late.
-Claiming same-sex marriage is a "threat" to this country's "traditional Judeo-Christian values" (because apparently gay Christians, or Christians who support gay rights, don't exist, I guess? To say nothing of the insulting insinuations about what constitutes "traditional values".)
-Actively pushing legislation to try and deny same-sex couples the right to marry, or adopt.
-Gay conversion therapy camps, and referring to homosexuality as a "mental illness".
-Comparisons of homosexuality to pedophilia, incest, or bestiality.

And if you think there aren't Christians out there wishing death on gay people, I would like to direct you to Google to look up information on an anti-gay bill in Uganda a number of years ago that stated homosexuality was punishable by death, and look at the mention of U.S. politicians who were connected to making that bill a thing.

And then there's also this response from a pastor about the Orlando shooting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...hem-didnt-die/

There's really not any difference between radical Islam and fundamentalist Christianity on that issue. So Obama's exactly right to say that Christians (or more specifically, the religious right) have absolutely no high ground to stand on with their attitude towards Islam here.

And I'll echo everything else Headache said. We blame this on mental illness, but won't support a healthcare system that would allow these people to cover and afford the mental healthcare they need. We take away toy guns in classroom (understandable, 'cause it's pointless to have them there, really) but think it's okay to arm the schools with the real thing. We blame violent media for influencing these shooters, but air images from real life wars on the nightly news as though they were action films, and have politicians getting all gung-ho about going overseas and fighting people because it's better than looking "weak" and "wimpy". And on and on.

So yes, Obama's exactly right to tell us to start looking inward. We're just as guilty for these conditions as anything and anyone else, and we need to acknowledge and confront and deal with that fact.
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:18 PM   #898
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The original birther argument was being circulated Clinton surrogates during the contested 2008 primary. Basically channeling the conspiracy theories of the time.
WEAKSAUCE - Trump was still asking in 2011, he wasn't just "channeling the conspiracy theories of the time".
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:18 PM   #899
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Nothing says "serious candidate" like a guy who not only insinuates that our sitting President is secretly an ISIS sympathizer, but who also decides to publicly insults the troops.

Really rallying that base and speaking to the "average Joe"

This is your candidate, GOP. Good job, good effort.
But remember, our military is weak, and a miserable failure, led by generals who are dumb. So insulting the troops is well deserved!! bravo Orange Master!
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:43 PM   #900
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The original birther argument was being circulated Clinton surrogates during the contested 2008 primary. Basically channeling the conspiracy theories of the time.
Incorrect.l This is a right wing bubble myth.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...er-fact-check/
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