2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread-Part 11 - Page 28 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-27-2008, 02:01 PM   #406
Refugee
 
cydewaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,256
Local Time: 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Just an update for you. They tried to pass it recently and it failed. Some democrats didn't go for it. Phew!

Senator Bingaman wants to reinstate it.
I wouldn't mind having it back.

What are all those poor AM radio stations going to do when they have to balance their 100% right-wing programming with an opposing view? It would be worth having it back just to see them wrestle with that.
__________________

__________________
cydewaze is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 02:01 PM   #407
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
What a political scientist would say is that we are all socialist to a certain extent and it's true the use of words are misused for political terms, but conservatives believe that Sweden (where $30,000 American or above gets 70% personal tax) is the ultimate goal for democratic socialists and yes they do read Karl Marx.

Das Capital is more influential than the Communist Manifesto because Marx couldn't describe the state of communism in any concrete way. Now Sweden lowered their corporate taxes so that jobs would still exist there and not move to Britain like it used to but that just bolsters the argument against shifting the tax burden to corporations.

Obama, in 2001 Interview, Lamented Failure of Civil Rights Movement to Redistribute Wealth - FOXNews.com Elections

This article also looks at what Obama would like to do. Also when you add Barney Frank's comments you get the idea there will be more tax shifts in the future. There are already welfare programs in the U.S. how much more is needed? I don't believe that Obama and Biden could go to Sweden in 4 years but the ultimate goal is that over time. If I did the questions I would focus on corporate taxes more and less on Karl Marx, but talking about Sweden is definately appropriate. I don't think anyone should avoid media questions unless they start swearing at the guy or getting physically agressive. Palin did her (edited) interviews and it's time for others to take their lumps and that won't happen until more conservative questions are asked. I'm actually surprised that those questions were even asked. In my country hard questions are usually reserved for anyone who threatens the liberal party (Conservative, NDP). If you think the debates are messy in the U.S. try and find video of the Canadian debates with 4 left wing parties after the 1 conservative party in a roundtable style with people shouting over each other. We also have the CRTC which is like the fairness doctrine. Fox News was actually not available until recently because of it. Eventually people complained they could get CNN and why not Fox News?
A political scientist should know about the three different European welfare paradigms. The Scandinavian model is one about equality, that's right. Nevertheless, a Dane, Swede or Norwegian would be pretty pissed if you called him a socialist. Again, there is another political philosophy known as social-democratism. Yes, it has the word social in its name. Yes, it shares aspects with socialism. Nevertheless, it's not the same.
Sweden's top income tax rate is 60%, which is even lower than that of Denmark at 64%.

I agree, there is not necessarily a need for more welfare programs. Those currently exisiting, however, are generally pretty weak and need drastic reforms.
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 02:06 PM   #408
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cydewaze View Post
I wouldn't mind having it back.

What are all those poor AM radio stations going to do when they have to balance their 100% right-wing programming with an opposing view? It would be worth having it back just to see them wrestle with that.
That's why Rush and Oscar are the only people talking about it... they fear losing their choir.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-27-2008, 03:10 PM   #409
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Utoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lovetown
Posts: 8,343
Local Time: 08:37 PM
How much of this fear of "redistribution" has to do with Republicans slyly playing the race card in order carry middle America? I'm not saying it's all about race, but there's a lot of precedent for it.

Enter: The Southern Strategy.
Quote:
In American politics, the Southern strategy refers to a Republican method of carrying Southern states in the latter decades of the 20th century and first decade of the 21st century by exploiting racism among white voters.

......Bob Herbert, a New York Times columnist, reported a 1981 interview with Lee Atwater, published in Southern Politics in the 1990s by Prof. Alexander P. Lamis, in which Lee Atwater discussed politics in the South:

You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.
And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger".[4]
.....
This article makes for a very interesting read: Southern strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Check out the bottom portion under the "Modern" heading for its use in the 2000-2008 elections. Some of it requires an open mind, and some of it seems obvious.


I strongly believe that so much of what the Republican party has "stood for" over the last two decades is rooted in cultural division, not the least of which involves racial issues. For a long time, I thought it was primarily Bush/Rove who drove immense wedges between the "cultures" of the United States with their claims of "values" and "faith." However, I'm 3/4 through Obama's book "The Audacity of Hope," and it looks like Reagan was at it then, too. He writes about how many people were aghast and put off by the social turmoil of the 60s and 70s. Enter Reagan--a simple-appearing guy who played simple cowboys in movies back in the 50s when time was simple and things were simply better (emphasis on the simple!). The calm voice of Reagan conjured up images and feelings of a time well before we had so much emphasis on freedoms and civil liberties, not to mention racial rights and equality. But it's interesting to see that the strategy of subversively drawing on these issues dates to even before Regan.

It drives me crazy to listen to people like Sarah Palin--this woman who's apparently so religious she believes people and dinosaurs roamed the earth together--to talk about religious values in the same speech that demonizes the notion of sharing wealth. What can be more "Christian" than sharing what you have with those who don't? In reality, what she's doing is furthering the wedge between middle America and the coasts, and there's no doubt that there are racial undertones in there, if only minimally. Think about it---the people McCain & Palin are making this "he'll take your hard-earned money and give it others" argument to at their rallies and in commercials are essentially middle-class people who won't even come close to the $250K income level for a tax increase under Obama. Yet they're playing on the misguided notion of "he's going to take your hard-earned money and give it to people who don't want to work as hard as you do." With the universal image of welfare recipients being primarily black, I dare you to tell me that there's not a racial undertone in that argument.
__________________
Utoo is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 03:37 PM   #410
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 63,720
Local Time: 04:37 PM
For your Monday afternoon enjoyment and amusement, I give you this electoral map. (Fear not - it's non-partisan!)

Op-Art - The Electoral Map - Interactive Feature - NYTimes.com

My personal favorite is Alabama.
__________________
corianderstem is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 03:43 PM   #411
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,489
Local Time: 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
The rich are a higher taxed than those with lower incomes. We support those with low to very low incomes with our social systems. The intention behind it is to keep the income distribution a little more equal.


many Americans believe that if you're poor it's your own damn fault.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-27-2008, 03:46 PM   #412
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 01:37 AM
I see. Well, we are still illusional and believe in the good of the people.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 03:48 PM   #413
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,489
Local Time: 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
I see. Well, we are still illusional and believe in the good of the people.


what's good for me is good for everyone.

when everyone thinks this way, it's good.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-27-2008, 03:53 PM   #414
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 07:37 PM
One of my favorite sections of Stephen Colbert's book was when he extended the metaphor of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps with ladder climbing and all. Fantastic.
__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 04:01 PM   #415
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 07:37 PM
I saw this on some tv show, they played the 911 tape. He's a maverick too, I guess. Tying up 911 lines for something like that is a serious thing.

Saturday, Oct. 25, 2008
McCain's Brother Calls 911 to Gripe About Traffic
By AP/GILLIAN GAYNAIR

(WASHINGTON) — The brother of GOP presidential candidate Sen. John McCain said Friday he'll withdraw from campaign activities after calling 911 to complain about traffic. He also apologized for making the call.

Joe McCain, who lives in Alexandria, Va., told Washington radio station WTOP he was returning from a campaign event in Philadelphia around 2 a.m. on Oct. 18 when he got stuck in traffic on Interstate 495 at the Wilson Bridge. His account of the timing differed from the police, who said the call was made at 1:30 a.m. on Oct. 21.

Frustrated because of the traffic, he called 911 to find out what was going on. The operator asked him to "state your emergency."

"Well, it's not an emergency, but do you know why on one side at the damn drawbridge of 95 traffic is stopped for 15 minutes and yet traffic's coming the other way?" Joe McCain said.

The operator asked him if he was calling 911 to complain about traffic. McCain then uttered an expletive and hung up the phone.

McCain told WTOP that he thought his cell phone was on mute.

"I did not mean to swear at the officers themselves," McCain said. If he were in their situation, "it would have really frosted me, too, and I absolutely understand their reaction."

After hanging up with 911, McCain said he called Alexandria police to ask them about the traffic on the bridge and got a similar reaction.

"I feel terrible about having hurt the campaign over this incident," he said. "I won't be doing any more campaigning because of that."

McCain said he's going to write a note of apology to the 911 operator and to the Alexandria police.

Joe McCain said he hasn't spoken to his brother about the incident.

"He's not going to be happy about it, I'm sure," he said.

McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds said: "Joe McCain recognizes his mistake and has apologized. We are moving on."

McCain's brother has been in the news on other occasions recently. Speaking at an event in early October in support of his brother, he called two Democratic-leaning areas in Northern Virginia "communist country."

"I've lived here for at least 10 years and before that about every third duty I was in either Arlington or Alexandria, up in communist country," Joe McCain, a Navy veteran, said at an event in Loudoun County, Va. Joe McCain then apologized, but the remark reportedly drew laughter at the event.

About a week later, the candidate's brother sent an e-mail blasting the campaign's "counter-productive" strategy.

"Let John McCain be John McCain," Joe McCain wrote in the e-mail. "Make ads that show John not as crank and curmudgeon but as a great leader for his time."

McCain's brother was sharply critical of unidentified top campaign officials who "so tightly 'control the message'" that they are preventing reporters from speaking with those, like himself, who know the candidate best.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 04:05 PM   #416
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 06:37 PM
Maybe insanity runs in the family

It's apparent the temper does...
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-27-2008, 04:19 PM   #417
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,237
Local Time: 06:37 PM
John McCain is a lot of things, but "insane" is stretching it. Willing to go to great lengths to win, sure.
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 04:22 PM   #418
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 07:37 PM
I think some of his behavior, actual and alleged..let's just say stretches the bounds of sane/rational behavior. Especially now as a man running for President.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 04:32 PM   #419
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
What a political scientist would say is that we are all socialist to a certain extent and it's true the use of words are misused for political terms, but conservatives believe that Sweden (where $30,000 American or above gets 70% personal tax) is the ultimate goal for democratic socialists and yes they do read Karl Marx.
No, most political scientists would not say "We're all socialist to a certain extent," not least because it's a meaningless statement, akin to saying we're all feudalists, oligarchs or fascists to a certain extent. Where's the evidence that Obama's goal is "a 70% personal tax for everyone making $30,000 or above"? Whom are you referring to when you say "yes they do read Karl Marx"? Most US political scientists wouldn't have read more than selections from Das Kapital, unless they specialize in the subfield of political economy.

McCain himself is on record demonstrating his understanding that differences over where to cut taxes in a progressive taxation system (a system both the Democratic and Republican parties support) aren't debates about 'socialism vs. capitalism', nor about 'the Swedish model vs. the American model':

Michigan State University, October 12, 2000

McCain is also well aware that the average American couldn't produce so much as a paragraph on what socialism is, what its characteristic ideological features are, how it differs from communism and social democracy as well as capitalism, etc., if his or her life depended on it. What his campaign does recognize is that the word itself--like "terrorist"--immediately evokes a visceral fear response in most Americans, particularly those of us over 35 who grew up with Cold War rhetoric about 'godless communists', 'bears in the woods', 'duck and cover' and so on being drummed into our heads at school, on TV, and often at home. It automatically conjures up associations of totalitarianism, militancy and extreme deprivation, never mind rational debate about corporate tax policies during a recession. In the context of US campaign politics, it has an immediate chilling effect on reasoned dialogue, and that's exactly why you see this rhetoric being hauled out at this late and desperate stage of the game.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 05:38 PM   #420
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Utoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lovetown
Posts: 8,343
Local Time: 08:37 PM
Yolland, you are my hero.
__________________

__________________
Utoo is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com