Rest of U2 Survivor: October - Round 1

[Axver]

I know October is the much maligned album of U2's discography, but that still surprises me. I would rank it in U2's top five albums. The undeniable passion, enthusiasm, and sincerity really endears the album to me, and Larry and Adam both shine and demonstrate their talent in a manner they really haven't equalled since. Songs like Gloria, I Threw A Brick, Rejoice, Fire, Tomorrow, and Scarlet all deserve to be U2 classics.

 

[corianderstem]

Passion, enthusiasm and sincerity are all great things in a U2 album, but for me, I just don't like the songs all that much (Gloria aside).

 

[Axver]

Not even Rejoice? Larry's never topped that performance - and at the current rate, never will! That's one hell of a song; Bono really gives it everything too, and it is a great example of Edge's classic sound.

 

[corianderstem]

Okay, I do like Rejoice. And Tomorrow. October is nice. I even rather like With a Shout.

But I don't really love any of those songs, not like Gloria. None of them are on my top-whatever list of U2 songs. The album just never struck that kind of chord with me, you know?

 

[LemonMelon]

Is That All. Absolute garbage.

 

[Axver]

Okay, I do like Rejoice. And Tomorrow. October is nice. I even rather like With a Shout.

See, it's not all bad, I knew you'd admit it.

And I like With A Shout too. That's another great performance from Larry.

But I don't really love any of those songs, not like Gloria. None of them are on my top-whatever list of U2 songs. The album just never struck that kind of chord with me, you know?

Yeah, seems like I'm in a huge minority on this one. I think it's a shame that October doesn't get much credit, as I think it's a great album that reflects very trying circumstances.

 

[shannonkv]

I really enjoy Scarlet...I think more people should give it a chance!! But I do think that October is their weakest album.

It was a tough choice between Is That All? and Stranger In A Strange Land.......the winner is Stranger In A Strange Land. I get soooooooooooo bored listening to this song.

 

[dr. zooeuss]

I know October is the much maligned album of U2's discography, but that still surprises me. I would rank it in U2's top five albums. The undeniable passion, enthusiasm, and sincerity really endears the album to me, and Larry and Adam both shine and demonstrate their talent in a manner they really haven't equalled since. Songs like Gloria, I Threw A Brick, Rejoice, Fire, Tomorrow, and Scarlet all deserve to be U2 classics.

i think of it not so much as October being a weak album, as the fact that all the others are stronger. however when pressed, i think one has to admit that at least half of the songs on october were not developed to their potential. i know that the loss of Bono's lyrics and some other factors contributed to that, but it does have an impact on the album. when they talk these days about songs starting out as 'sketches'- to me October is an album at least half full of sketches. there are some great sketches there, but placed alongside the rest of their work, the lack of development is very apparent.

 

[bonocomet]

Guess I'm in the minority as well. October always ranks up with my favorites. The album as a whole just has a feeling to me that is special. I like the whole thing. I don't think a single vote I made on the Boy round ended up being the song that got voted off... and I have a feeling this round will go about the same. Oh well!

 

[phillyfan26]

i think of it not so much as October being a weak album, as the fact that all the others are stronger.

I tend to disagree here. U2 definitely has weak albums. They're not a strong album band. They're a live band. With albums, they release songs that aren't finished, haven't reached their potential, and have been poorly mixed and mastered in quite a few cases. (See: Pop, AB)

I think October's middle of the road: better than Zooropa, Pop, ATYCLB, HTDAAB, and War; worse than Boy, UF, JT, RAH, AB.

 

[phanan]

I consider October to be by far U2's worst album.

And it's a shame Gloria is included in this because it's by far the obvious winner, but oh well.

I vote for Is That All? here.

 

[Axver]

If today's songs are completed pictures, then I'll gladly take U2's sketches over the completed pictures. October just feels so human, so genuine and honest. It's got feeling and hasn't been over-thought or over-produced. If any album truly is "four men in a room", October is it.

I tend to disagree here. U2 definitely has weak albums. They're not a strong album band. They're a live band. With albums, they release songs that aren't finished, haven't reached their potential, and have been poorly mixed and mastered in quite a few cases. (See: Pop, AB)

I think October's middle of the road: better than Zooropa, Pop, ATYCLB, HTDAAB, and War; worse than Boy, UF, JT, RAH, AB.

I largely agree with this. My group of albums superior to October are Boy, UF, JT, and Passengers.

And it's a shame Gloria is included in this because it's by far the obvious winner, but oh well.

Yeah, I wish I could've excluded it. The three predictable winners are Gloria, Tomorrow, and October. I can eliminate Gloria by eliminating singles; I can eliminate October by excluding Best Of material. But even if we applied both of those criteria, we're still left with Tomorrow as the very clear victor. The only way I think you could have an unpredictable October Survivor is to say "right, well, I'm just cutting what's likely to win", but that's hardly an objective criteria.

 

[dr. zooeuss]

I tend to disagree here. U2 definitely has weak albums. They're not a strong album band. They're a live band. With albums, they release songs that aren't finished, haven't reached their potential, and have been poorly mixed and mastered in quite a few cases. (See: Pop, AB)

I think October's middle of the road: better than Zooropa, Pop, ATYCLB, HTDAAB, and War; worse than Boy, UF, JT, RAH, AB.

Interesting. I can't say i agree with much of what you've said, but it's interesting to hear your point of view.

I have no idea how anyone could consider october better than war, but of course we're all entitled to our opinions.

imo, it's difficult to compare october to anything other than boy or war, because UF on were such conscious changes from the style of the first three, and by the mid-80s i think technology had advanced enough that production-quality comparisons seem diffiult to make.

i'll admit i'm not versed in the intricacies of album production, but it seems difficult to compare an album from '81 to one from '91 or '97 on this criteria.

i agree that U2's live performances may be their forte, but i've never seen live vs album as an "either//or" affair- and they have at least four our five albums that are very widely recognized as being great albums- UF, JT, AB, I'd add War and possibly one or both of the last two as well. when you included AB up there with Pop, you were talking of mixing and mastering, right? (i hope) that's not something directly in their control.. as far as being finished to its potential, i think AB may top the list.

i'm curious as to what other songs you'd say they released as unfinished and/or not up to potential..

of course it's impossible to disentangle this conversation from our personal opinions, so fyi i'll list my current U2 discography order of preference. (Joshua Tree slightly edges out Achtung Baby for me for the first time in years due to the re-mastered version)

1. Joshua Tree
2. Achtung Baby
3. War
4. ATYCLB
5. Unforgettable Fire
6. HTDAAB
7. Pop
8. Boy
9. (Rattle and Hum)
10. Zooropa
11. October

 

[WCF]

I love October, however I think it would be an overstatement to say it's one of my favorites. Sometimes, I tend have a bias towards it because it's the underdog album.

 

[Axver]

i'll admit i'm not versed in the intricacies of album production, but it seems difficult to compare an album from '81 to one from '91 or '97 on this criteria.

What I think is sad is that despite all of the technological improvements in the 23 years between them, October still manages to sound better - much, much better - than HTDAAB. HTDAAB was thoroughly ruined by "louder is better" production. Ugh, the clipping in Crumbs From Your Table makes me want to find whoever mixed that and give them a swift kick in the pants. I'd love to know why U2 approved that for release.

as far as being finished to its potential, i think AB may top the list.

I don't think it's even close. Look at how some of the songs developed live. I don't mean tour-by-tour reinventions, but changes that have become a permanent or semi-permant element of the song. One's "do you hear us coming?" verse is a good example, as is the extension of Mysterious Ways. WGRYWH is notoriously incomplete; the band have made no secret of their displeasure with it. And oh goodness, could UTEOTW's ending be neutered any more on the album?

 

[LemonMelon]

AB sounds like garbage. The live versions are in a completely different stratosphere, and that's unfortunate because, with some truly exciting production, the album could have actually lived up to its hype. As it is, I'd rather pretend the album doesn't exist and put a high-quality leg 1 bootleg (that contains WGRYWH) on repeat.

 

[Rob33]

ok I don't understand any votes for Scarlet!! This is such a nice sound..there was a thread a few weeks ago on what U2 song you just can never get enough of... I'd be tempted to put this song in that group of songs as well...such a beautiful sound, this song deserves to go far in this poll

 

[LemonMelon]

of course it's impossible to disentangle this conversation from our personal opinions, so fyi i'll list my current U2 discography order of preference. (Joshua Tree slightly edges out Achtung Baby for me for the first time in years due to the re-mastered version)

1. Joshua Tree
2. Achtung Baby
3. War
4. ATYCLB
5. Unforgettable Fire
6. HTDAAB
7. Pop
8. Boy
9. (Rattle and Hum)
10. Zooropa
11. October

Here's my updated version:

1. Zooropa
2. Joshua Tree
3. Pop
4. War
5. HTDAAB
6. Boy
7. Achtung Baby
8. Rattle And Hum
9. Passengers
10. ATYCLB
11. October
12. Unforgettable Fire

 

[AchtungGirl219]

^ Awww! I love the Unforgettable Fire. I have trouble separating my top 5 favourite albums, but I think Unforgettable Fire is the winner... (followed closely by AB, Zooropa, Boy and JT).

 

[AchtungGirl219]

I love Scarlet too. Along with MOTD, it really calms me down when I'm feeling stressed. Just beautiful and very soothing. lol. I sound ridiculous saying that.

But seriously... they should have left Is That All off as a b-side. It's not that I hate it... it's just more that I find the transition from the gorgeous “peacefulness” of Scarlet to the excitement of the opening notes of Is That All to be somewhat violent. As such, it denies the album a “healing” conclusion, (in the tradition of 40 and MOTD) – something Scarlet would have provided beautifully.

 

[phillyfan26]

For me:
1. Joshua Tree
2. Achtung Baby
3. Unforgettable Fire
4. Boy
5. Rattle and Hum
6. October
7. War
8. Zooropa
9. All That You Can't Leave Behind
10. How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb
11. Pop

 

[Axver]

But seriously... they should have left Is That All off as a b-side. It's not that I hate it... it's just more that I find the transition from the gorgeous “peacefulness” of Scarlet to the excitement of the opening notes of Is That All to be somewhat violent. As such, it denies the album a “healing” conclusion, (in the tradition of 40 and MOTD) – something Scarlet would have provided beautifully.

Yes, absolutely. I can't fathom why on earth they chose the tracklisting they did. They could have at least put Scarlet elsewhere if their hearts were set on including Is That All? and avoided the jarring transition entirely.

And while we're ranking albums ...

1. The Unforgettable Fire
2. The Joshua Tree
3. Passengers
4. Boy
5. October
6. War
7. Zooropa
8. Pop
9. Rattle And Hum
10. How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb
11. Achtung Baby
12,000. All That You Really Can Leave Behind, Seriously

I have a great unofficial b-sides compilation that I'd rank at #3 if I could include it. It has almost all of the 1979-87 b-sides that didn't make the Best Of 1980-1990 b-sides bonus disc.

 

[Mauwer]

Mauwer, it's scary how similar our posts are! The exact same minute too!

Indeed

Cheers ,

Mauwer

 

[Mauwer]

Oh...here`s my ranking of the albums.
( excluding Passengers and MDH etc... )

01 - The Joshua Tree
02 - Achtung Baby
03 - The Unforgetable Fire
04 - Boy
05 - Rattle and Hum
06 - POP
07 - Zooropa
08 - October
09 - All That You Can`t Leave Behind
10 - HTDAAB
11 - War

Cheers ,

Mauwer

 

[UberBeaver]

G-L-O-R-I-A - GLORIA!

 

[cruzila]

I'm not too familiar with this album

 

[the tourist]

Scarlet

 

[the tourist]

Oh, and my album list:

The Joshua Tree
The Unforgettable Fire
War
Rattle & Hum
Achtung Baby
Pop
How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb
October
Boy
All That You Can't Leave Behind
Zooropa
Passengers

 

[dr. zooeuss]

What I think is sad is that despite all of the technological improvements in the 23 years between them, October still manages to sound better - much, much better - than HTDAAB. HTDAAB was thoroughly ruined by "louder is better" production. Ugh, the clipping in Crumbs From Your Table makes me want to find whoever mixed that and give them a swift kick in the pants. I'd love to know why U2 approved that for release.

Again this is really interesting. You have some very good points, but increasingly you're talking production quality, which I see as a separate topic from the development of songs on an album. I'd still like to hear what U2 songs from other albums you consider as incomplete.

I don't think it's even close. Look at how some of the songs developed live. I don't mean tour-by-tour reinventions, but changes that have become a permanent or semi-permant element of the song. One's "do you hear us coming?" verse is a good example, as is the extension of Mysterious Ways. WGRYWH is notoriously incomplete; the band have made no secret of their displeasure with it. And oh goodness, could UTEOTW's ending be neutered any more on the album?

Again you make some good points, but as you mention, U2've been reinventing their songs for live performance for more or less their whole career.

I can see that we're looking at this differently- you say that compared to what they became after repeated performance and improvement, songs like One, Mysterious Ways, End of the World and Wild Horses became much better than the versions on Achtung Baby. I'd agree with that almost 100%.

However, I thought we were comparing October the Album to other U2 albums, so I'm a bit puzzled as to why October is not even mentioned in your second paragraph. If anything I think your point about AB songs live vs album versions makes the point even more clearly- in general October's songs weren't even given the opportunity to grow and improve as live songs. Personally I attribute this to the fact that about half of them weren't even finished in the first place.

You're making good points Axver, but I don't think we're really discussing the same thing. What I'm trying to say is that if you were to sit down and listen to all of U2's albums AS THEY WERE RELEASED, October as a whole stands out as having many more songs that sound very unfinished when compared to the majority of tracks on other U2 albums.

I've gone and dusted off my October cassette and a walkman (haha) so I can be more specific..

After listening to the album about three times for the first time in admittedly quite awhile, I'd say that there are two things going on on October that aren't in nearly as much evidence on any other U2 album.

1) the "unfinished sketch" quality of some songs- this is primarily a musical issue- I'm thinking mainly of Scarlet and Is That All? which sound like starter riffs that were thinly stretched to become entire songs. Lesser examples are almost the entire album.

For reference, songs from other albums I'd say suffer from this musical underdevelopment are the First Time, One Step Closer, and Dirty Day.


2) Bono's lyrics are incredibly oblique in a non-satisfying way. In general, Bono's lyrics are well-known and loved for being non-specific in a way that encourages personal interpretations with multiple layers of meaning. On October though, amost all of the songs have a vagueness that makes them inaccessible or frustrating rather than endearing or inviting. I fall down, I threw a brick, stranger in a strange land all suffer terribly from this, and i'd say rejoice, fire and with a shout do to a lesser degree, in that lyrically they have the seeds of incredible songs, but seem to have left their heart buried and unrevealed in a way that the larger scope of Bono's work rarely does. I get the feeling that with one or two more re-writes they could have become something great.


Lyrically underdeveloped from other albums- Indian Summer Sky and Elvis Presley and America. I'm realizing that there may be a blurry line between lyrical development and lyrical delivery- Promenade i don't think of as being lyrically underdeveloped, but Bono's delivery on the album makes it very difficult to understand and therefore, to get into...

I don't think it's a coincidence that few of these songs have been performed or developed into something more on tour. They seem to have been considered "filler tracks" almost from the beginning, maybe with the exception of "One Step Closer".


It is interessting that Gloria, Tomorrow and October are almost universally considered the three good tracks from October. I don't think it's a coincidence that they seem to rise above the two major problems I've described above. Gloria and Tomorrow are both very interesting musically- they seem much better structured and organized- they take you through a journey that changes and evolves, albeit for the most part around the conventional verse-chorus-verse format (but U2 have done most of their work within that and made it shine incredibly well) - they just seem more completed musically and trade knowingly between musical passages where Adam, Edge and Larry all take the lead in turn, as opposed to the music of most of the rest of the album, that seems sort of random and not really aware of where it's headed.

Lyrically I'd also say Gloria and Tomorrow are much more purposeful- Gloria is a beautifully written rock//postpunk//new wave song that is also an expression of praise and faith - even successfully putting in some Latin - ambitious and sincere achievements that have really not been done before or since in all of rock music. Tomorrow, lyrically, operates beautifully on at least
two levels- as a song to God and to Bono's departed mother. It's not hard for the listener to also think of it as being sung to a close friend either, and the line about the black car hints at another realm of meaning that could be both very specific and very universal.

October stands as a bit of an anomaly - musically it is very simple but very clear and beautiful - lyrically as well, very spare but very powerful, the first part anchored by specifics the second by universals. It is a great example of the "less is more" concept. A whole album of songs like this wouldn't work, but it stands out majestically on October, and in the U2 catalogue as a whole.

I think I'm actually going to be more interested in this round than any of the others. To me October has always been the inaccessible U2 album, and writing this has helped me to undestand why.

After taking some time to think about it, I have a greater appreciation for Rejoice, Fire and With a Shout than I did before, but it seems very obvious to me that these songs could have become so much more than what they are, as recorded on this album.

One last thought, to me the October album has long stood as the best argument for U2 taking the time they feel they need in the studio. As diehard U2 fans, we can all get a bit frustrated that they take longer than most bands to record and release their albums, but the way I see it, the feeling I get from October that it is not nearly what it could have been, (again I'm talking music and lyrics, NOT MIXING OR PRODUCTIN) coupled with the fact that it was recorded and released faster than any other in their catalogue, is the perfect reason that they should take the time they feel they need to complete albums in their own way and in their own time.


/end dissertation on October.

 

[phillyfan26]

you say that compared to what they became after repeated performance and improvement, songs like One, Mysterious Ways, End of the World and Wild Horses became much better than the versions on Achtung Baby. I'd agree with that almost 100%.

That's not what I'm saying, and I don't know if Axver is or not.

I'm saying they didn't finish the songs.

Some of them, like Mysterious Ways and Love is Blindness, just got added on to. That's what you're talking about. Improvement live. Specifically live. That's normal for U2.

But I'm saying that Zoo Station, EBTTRT, One, UTEOTW, The Fly, and TTTYAATW were all improved live because the album versions were incomplete (incomplete: defined as, had the band had more time, a clearer, better song would have resulted). Not because U2 specifically added on to the live. But because they hadn't finished them in studio.