Give War a Chance (Commentary on USA's attack)

[U2Bama]

Bubba:

As your ally in this effort, I strongly urge you to reconsider what you just did, regardless of whether you get an e-mail from him. If nothing else, let's jsut move it to Free your Mind. Please. Thanks you.

~U2Alabama

 

[TylerDurden]

Heh, heh, I love these debates/arguments, even when I don't know half of the names or situations (eg your elections last year) being thrown around, a good wrestle is always fun to watch.

But seriously, as if you'd expect any country or any government/country to not do anything but go conservative/patriotic as all hell/slightly propagandery/censored etc at least for a little immediate while in situations like this.

And yeah, like Bama said one of the things you are fighting for is the right for people to say 'Fuck off, I disagree' whenever they want. So remember that these differing views and arguments are what makes your (and my) countries cool (and I seem to be forever yelling 'Fuck Off!' at my government lately - not related to this though)

And two thumbs up for these attacks being necessary (not normally a military supporter, but with this what else can you do?) and seem to be going perfectly.

 

[mug222]

I think Melon has spoken very well for the "left of center" contingent of the forum, especially with respect to Bubba's labelling of opponents, which I find both ignorant and dangerous.

I just have one small comment: Melon (and a few others, I believe) said that he agrees with the attacks because the US has "exhausted all other options"- what options, pray tell? I believe Bush made a tremendous error in judgement when he announced that he would not negotiate with the Taliban. The US made no diplomatic moves with the Taliban, and never made the outright demand to the Taliban that Bin Laden be extradited.
Though these actions may have proved futile (in fact, I believe they would have proved futile), I still think that the US should have pursued this path to the fullest possible extent before immediately turning to military action.



[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 10-08-2001).]

 

[Achtung Bubba]

NO.

It's one thing if a person says what he believes, and it happens to piss people off -- as I'm sure I've done when I assert that Michael Moore is probably a Communist.

It's another thing altogether when someone says something intentionally inflammatory to SIMPLY upset people.

I would probably suspend an account if the inflammatory statement was in a benign subject, like U2; as it is, it's an inflammatory remark in a deathly serious subject.

Hence, the suspension. (And I *was* thinking about deleting the account.)

The suspension will be lifted after I talk with melon.

(And this actually insn't a completely free forum, speech-wise -- read the documentation you agreed to to join -- I try to keep it as free as possible, but I draw the line here.)

Achtung Bubba

 

[Achtung Bubba]

melon has been reinstated.

 

[mug222]

EDIT- please ignore. Have a nice day

[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 10-08-2001).]

 

[melon]

Thank you, Bubba, and none of you have to worry about me. I'm finished with politics. I wish you all the best.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[TheU2]

Originally posted by mug222:

I just have one small comment: Melon (and a few others, I believe) said that he agrees with the attacks because the US has "exhausted all other options"- what options, pray tell? I believe Bush made a tremendous error in judgement when he announced that he would not negotiate with the Taliban. The US made no diplomatic moves with the Taliban, and never made the outright demand to the Taliban that Bin Laden be extradited.
Though these actions may have proved futile (in fact, I believe they would have proved futile), I still think that the US should have pursued this path to the fullest possible extent before immediately turning to military action.

I believe you're mistaken. The USA made repeated demands for the turning over of Osama AssHole. Taliban repeatedly said they didn't know of his whereabouts. Now they say he's safe and sound. WTF? All viable options were exhausted.

CK



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I will give you 2 GA's for 2 GC's!! Email or IM me or respond to the multiple threads I have concerning this. Help a desparate man out!!
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77

 

[mug222]

I agree that the bombings were probably inevitable, but I'm still relatively certain that there were never state-to-state talks between the US and the Taliban, partly because the US does not recognize the Taliban. I'm just under the impression that there were a few diplomatic options left in the bag before they had to fire up the jets.

 

[TheU2]

Originally posted by mug222:
I'm just under the impression that there were a few diplomatic options left in the bag before they had to fire up the jets.

Such as?

CK



------------------
I will give you 2 GA's for 2 GC's!! Email or IM me or respond to the multiple threads I have concerning this. Help a desparate man out!!
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Just speak your mind -- rather than intentionally inflammatory remarks -- and you'll be fine.

 

[U2Bama]

The demands and evidence were delivered to Taliban representatives through Pakistani officials, the only nation which still recognizes it. mug, you need to think about why NO OTHER nation in the entire world recognizes the filthy, modern-day nazi regime known as the Taliban.

~U2Alabama

 

[mug222]

Originally posted by TheU2:
Such as?

Umm...now pay attention as I say this for the third time: Official discussions between US representatives and delegates from the Taliban.

And Bama, of course I understand. The Taliban are the scum of the earth, but that does not mean that we shouldn't have discussions with them for the possible benefit of reducing "collateral damage" (and we all know what that means.) You compare the Taliban with the Nazis, perhaps not an outlandish comparison. But are you honestly saying that you would forego meetings that had even the slightest chance of reducing the masses killed during the Holocaust? Of course not! I know this is a vastly different situation, but the desire by the US to reduce the number of innocent deaths should be the same.


[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 10-08-2001).]

 

[Achtung Bubba]

COME ON, Ivan.

I'm an administrator and moderator -- it's my job to lay down the law when necessary. I believe I haven't had to do anything like this but one other time in the last year.

In fact, I've probably been too lax.

So, there's no need for the immediate criticism.

 

[mug222]

I don't know, Bubba; to the observer it sure looked like you were using your administrative bullying in the place of meaningful discussion. Perhaps you had no intelligent response?

 

[TheU2]

Originally posted by mug222:
Umm...now pay attention as I say this for the third time: Official discussions between US representatives and delegates from the Taliban.

Who cares about official discussions. Did they get the message? Yes Did they ignore the message? Yes.

CK



------------------
I will give you 2 GA's for 2 GC's!! Email or IM me or respond to the multiple threads I have concerning this. Help a desparate man out!!
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77

 

[TylerDurden]

Yeah there really is no other way then attacking. I mean, for starters don't the US have a 'no negotiating' rule with terrorists or something?
And you can't exactly get bin Laden over to the White House for a little coffee with GW and work on a little peace solution.
You could maybe negotiate with the Taliban for his (and his peoples) extradition, but then what, you get him in the US on some huge trial, and either stick him in jail for life or execute him and you are giving him a platform to spit out all his bullshit plus turn him into an instant hero and martyr.
Plus the Taliban should be removed, even regardless of all of this.

 

[U2Bama]

In all honesty, Bubba, I cannot see what melon said in a thread about a Michael Moore column that was out of bounds. Granted, you have the right and the power to monitor and control what is posted in here, but in the spirit of a political debate, I disagree with the suspension.

It especially wasn't directed at you (the baiting) as he twice acknowledged that you and I responded with evidence. I fear that this has caused me to lose my #1 debate foe.

~U2Alabama

 

[mug222]

Originally posted by TheU2:
Who cares about official discussions.

Not too many, unfortunately.
Official negotiation is an important process that was skipped in favor of immediate military action. I fear this will come back to haunt us.
Alright, good night everyone.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Look at the history of these threads, mug:

Have I ever before booted or suspended people for saying something contrary to my beliefs? No.

Rather, I remove the badge of my job and engage the arguments on equal footing. I respond in kind. I refute and debate. I don't use my administrative powers to silence dissenting views.

This ONE TIME we had a forum member apparently baiting others with inflammatory remarks instead of expressing his genuine ideas. That's what I responded to; I suspended the account, and I re-instated the account just as quickly. And I hope melon continues the debate -- and I just hope that everyone avoids baiting people.

And, finally, if I was as bad as you're implying, I would have used my administrative powers now, rather than engaging you with this post.

Bubba

 

[U2Bama]

Actually, at one point a couple of weeks ago, I suggested a ping pong tournament between the U.S. and the Taliban. It didn't go over when I met with the State Department.

~U2Alabama

 

[TheU2]

Originally posted by mug222:
Not too many, unfortunately.
Official negotiation is an important process that was skipped in favor of immediate military action. I fear this will come back to haunt us.
Alright, good night everyone.

Communication is communication. Either by fax, email, in person, 3rd party, its all communication. Why are you wasting my time by arguing about the merits of offical communication and how that by not engaging in it, we will be haunted. I'm glad you're going to bed.

CK



------------------
I will give you 2 GA's for 2 GC's!! Email or IM me or respond to the multiple threads I have concerning this. Help a desparate man out!!
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77

 

[TheU2]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
Actually, at one point a couple of weeks ago, I suggested a ping pong tournament between the U.S. and the Taliban. It didn't go over when I met with the State Department.

~U2Alabama

ha ha....too funny

CK



------------------
I will give you 2 GA's for 2 GC's!! Email or IM me or respond to the multiple threads I have concerning this. Help a desparate man out!!
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Bama, this is what I objected to:

Originally posted by melon:
Likewise, if you look at my first post, it was done in a similarly provocative and irreverent manner, done on purpose to evoke responses out of you, my "test public." You are all right on cue, and I thank you all for making my mental hypothesis correct.

It appeared that melon said what he/she said IN ORDER TO piss people off. It came off as manipulative and far too childish for this subject matter.

Hence, the suspension.

And IVAN, cut the criticism. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Bubba

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by TheU2:
Communication is communication. Either by fax, email, in person, 3rd party, its all communication.

Well, I think as "primitive" as the Taliban is, a carrier pigeon would have been a more likely means of communication.

~U2Alabama

 

[mug222]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
And, finally, if I was as bad as you're implying, I would have used my administrative powers now, rather than engaging you with this post.
Bubba

True, thanks for keeping me on the ship. Got a bit caught up in the argumentative spirit of the thread. Apologies.

Originally posted by U2Bama
Actually, at one point a couple of weeks ago, I suggested a ping pong tournament between the U.S. and the Taliban. It didn't go over when I met with the State Department.

LMAO!

Originally posted by TheU2:
Communication is communication. Either by fax, email, in person, 3rd party, its all communication. Why are you wasting my time by arguing about the merits of offical communication and how that by not engaging in it, we will be haunted.

Well, here is where I disagree with you. Though I hate to admit it, the various workings of official government relations are very, very important, though many don't realize it.

Originally posted by TheU2:
I'm glad you're going to bed.

Uncalled for, as I tried to keep the discussion civil; obviously, you had more trouble with that concept. But you're right- I do need my requisite 8 hours of sleep!



[This message has been edited by mug222 (edited 10-08-2001).]

 

[Achtung Bubba]

No problem, Mug.

 

[U2Bama]

Nonetheless, I think it was done more to evoke spirited debate, like when I posted a thread in Free Your Mind called "Should we Ban Conservative Celebrities" just to see if some of the libs thought we should.

~U2Alabama

 

[pmonticone]

i don't contribute often, but i feel i might be of some use if i were to step in now to remind the guy who makes this forum tick (actually, i have no clue how this forum really works-- that is to say, it is not a "genuine idea/feeling" of mine-- rather, it is something I'm only saying to shamelessly ingratiate myself with the forum running-man--- i wonder if this is as bad as saying inflammatory things to grab people and drag them closer to the center so that a more intelligent and objective debate might take place) that extreme statements--whether "genuinely" believed or not-- are sometimes called for in situations where thought has stagnated and we've become too comfortable too quickly with one line of thought (check out susan sontag's piece in the new yorker)... so, all i'm sayin' is extreme, inflammatory statements are a legitimate rhetorical device (cf, bill hicks).... and after all, that's really what everything since sept. 11 (and before) has been.... and i don't really like moore, but i'm happy that he's been writing what he has, because i'm sure that he's more right than the ann coulter's of the world... and anything you can do to temper some of that rhetoric...

 

[garibaldo]

Originally posted by melon:
Oh I love to be generalized in an ideological category. Anyone who has seriously paid attention to my writings would realize that I don't buy into either ideology wholly. But you only appear when convenient.

Brilliance always spouting from your fingers.

Melon

You never cease to amaze me, melon. Of course you place in yourself in this sort of limbo political state where you can't be judged as either a Republican, Democrat or whatever. This is the same retarded tactic that Bill Maher tried for awhile before it was painfully obvious to everyone where he aligned (he's a libertarian pretending to be a democrat). It's obvious here where you align. Your criticize my comments for lacking substance yet you offer no substance yourself. Your comments are childish and inflammatory (i.e. characterizing my comments as Eisenhower rhetoric worthy of a funny tagline). It's also hilarious that you accuse me of name calling, but it's clear to everyone that your inflammatory comments are no better (ehem Achtung Bubba). Still, despite that, you try to take the moral high ground yet again. You may claim to be done with politics, but I HIGHLY doubt it. Come back and regale us with your morally superior, liberal wit!