Bono with the US on the war in Afghanistan

[Hans Moleman]

Originally posted by Se7en:
most of you are saying that if your family and friends were threatened you'd turn the other cheek...

that's humor.

Oh how nothing has changed since before the dawn of Christianity...

It's an "eye for an eye," yes? Or, more realistically, it is a "head for an eye." I almost find it humorous that the most violent nations, in so many cases, are the most religious nations. And it is statements like this on both sides (not just America, not just the Taliban) that will ensure that the cycle of violence will never ever end.

And I can't condemn America for what they have done so far, because the terrorism wouldn't have stopped without retaliation. Seeing the Taliban fall too is great...yet another tyrannical government gone, and I think the people of Afghanistan will be better off as a result...I only hope. All I can hope is that in the worldwide "anti-terrorist" campaigns, we don't create more enemies out of it to perpetuate the violence further--or use this as a means to perpetuate selfish business or "national security" interests that only serve to anger people further.

"I stopped outside a church house
Where the citizens like to sit
They say they want the kingdom
But they don't want God in it."

~Melon

------------------
"Oh no...my brains."

 

[V Nura]

SV,

1.) the UN is a joke
2.) The Aim of the pentagon/WTC acts was to kill as many civilians as possible, unlike the US conflict which aims to kill as few civilians as possible. If you honestly think that civilians won't die in a war well then quite frankly, I pity you.
3.) the taliban were offered a choice to hand over bin laden or face retalitation. The only language a regime like the taliban understands is force. And of course your goign to hit me with the " bin laden has not been definitivly linked to these attacks BS"..well he has been implicated in the marine barracks bombings and the USS cole bombimgs which is more than enough reason for the taliban to hand him over. They had a CHOICE to prevent the civilian casualties in question, it's not the fault of the US, blame the taliban and Al qaeda..db9 actually does have soem brains when he says that.
4.) We gave bin laden afghanistan from the soviets...HE turned on us..he betrayed a Islamic tenant which clearly states that one must respect and defend his ally same with saddam these men dont' understand god, only power, hatred and death you can't negotiate with these people.
5.) is it so hard to believe that at times a war has to be fought? Gandhi and MLK civil disobediance type rebellions only work internally and with regimes that actually respect life, try that crap in afghanistan your goign to be executed on an internationlly built soccer field that is now used for executions. Negotiations don't work with these people.
6.) SV aside, people who are actually disspointed in bono for his view need to get their head checked, Bono himself hates it when people use him as a benchmark for anything. Since when was he the flag carrier for everything you believed in?
7.)If you ask me, we've delyed action like this for too long..we should have been after governments like libya, Sudan, and Afghanistan a long time ago, since the days of the Pan am flight 103 bombings.
8.) I am very pleased that the new album will have a cool punk type sound to it
9.) if we had not done anything...the next attack would have been a dirty nuke on london..let's see if you wouldn't have wanted some head rolling then.
10.) simply put the US has a right to defend itself and take retalitory action against any nation that makes a strike against it OR any nation that willingly harbors a group that has made such a strike sometimes justice is the right of the strong
11.) there is two feet of fresh snow in my driveway, I'm snowed in and have nothing bette to do than reply to this thread.

 

[sharky]

Originally posted by sv:
Sharky, Ground Zero is what Afghanistan looked like in about 1982. Except that there were a few thousand (most say many thousand, but I don't really know the exact number) more legless cripples crawling around, a few thousand more landmines, a few thousand more craters, a few thousand more starving people than in lower Manhattan . . . and that was before the Soviets completed their destruction, before the U.S.-sponsored mujaheedin took over and further ruined the country, before the Taliban did even worse.

So I guess bombing Afghanistan was the right solution to the Ground Zero problem.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what its like to have walked by people that were dead an hour later or know what 220 stories of collapsed building taste like. Maybe I take this issue too personally because I was there. sorry. but its not as easy as saying "They are poor. We shouldn't go after bin Laden." bin Laden isn't poor. We're helping to put in a government that will be better for the Afghanis. They can get to the aid we sent them that the Taliban never gave them. They can walk through the streets without fear of the Taliban. How is that wrong?

The US can't feed every starving person in the world. The US can't be right all the time. But we're trying to right wrongs-- including a wrong that was done to us by a terrorist and the government that supported him and a wrong that was done to the Afghan people who starved while American food was locked up in storage by the Taliban.

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

such is war, everybody loses.

 

[The Wanderer]

you love this town, even if it, doesn't ring true...

 

[Hitman]

Originally posted by Arun V:
SV,

1.) the UN is a joke
2.) The Aim of the pentagon/WTC acts was to kill as many civilians as possible, unlike the US conflict which aims to kill as few civilians as possible. If you honestly think that civilians won't die in a war well then quite frankly, I pity you.
3.) the taliban were offered a choice to hand over bin laden or face retalitation. The only language a regime like the taliban understands is force. And of course your goign to hit me with the " bin laden has not been definitivly linked to these attacks BS"..well he has been implicated in the marine barracks bombings and the USS cole bombimgs which is more than enough reason for the taliban to hand him over. They had a CHOICE to prevent the civilian casualties in question, it's not the fault of the US, blame the taliban and Al qaeda..db9 actually does have soem brains when he says that.
4.) We gave bin laden afghanistan from the soviets...HE turned on us..he betrayed a Islamic tenant which clearly states that one must respect and defend his ally same with saddam these men dont' understand god, only power, hatred and death you can't negotiate with these people.
5.) is it so hard to believe that at times a war has to be fought? Gandhi and MLK civil disobediance type rebellions only work internally and with regimes that actually respect life, try that crap in afghanistan your goign to be executed on an internationlly built soccer field that is now used for executions. Negotiations don't work with these people.
6.) SV aside, people who are actually disspointed in bono for his view need to get their head checked, Bono himself hates it when people use him as a benchmark for anything. Since when was he the flag carrier for everything you believed in?
7.)If you ask me, we've delyed action like this for too long..we should have been after governments like libya, Sudan, and Afghanistan a long time ago, since the days of the Pan am flight 103 bombings.
8.) I am very pleased that the new album will have a cool punk type sound to it
9.) if we had not done anything...the next attack would have been a dirty nuke on london..let's see if you wouldn't have wanted some head rolling then.
10.) simply put the US has a right to defend itself and take retalitory action against any nation that makes a strike against it OR any nation that willingly harbors a group that has made such a strike sometimes justice is the right of the strong
11.) there is two feet of fresh snow in my driveway, I'm snowed in and have nothing bette to do than reply to this thread.

Couldn't have said it better myself! Very good points, and very eloquently stated....

------------------
Live As If You'll Die Tomorrow, Dream As If You'll Live Forever!

[This message has been edited by Hitman (edited 12-25-2001).]

 

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Very well said Arun.
A smart young man.

Diamond.

have you considered shoveling your parents' driveway to pass time today and thereby saving them some cake so the normal contractor doesnt have to come by?

love -diamond

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"...The big guy is made of STEEL." - Bono as we stood together on stage at Boston #4, June 9th, 2001.

---
-curious? click
links for
Bono/Dimon-
Bos.4 Story
Pics..

http://www.arizonaautoweb.com/bono/

http://members.aol.com/diamondbruno9/

 

[bonofnattic]

I cannot WAIT until the new album comes out!!!! It will be great to hear some awesome rock tunes from U2 again! So proud that they're recording so soon.

I have to say that all of this injustice and war is SUCH an argument against evolution. I mean, how are we evolving when we can't even have conversation? (that's a whole other post, though)

I think the US should've stopped economic sanctions against Iraq years ago, personally, however I do consider myself a Patriotic US citizen, and do have US flags at my house. I also think that killing other innocent civilians is not the answer, but I think they should've just hunted down Bin Ladin himself...I mean, don't they have satellites that can read your newspaper? Then how in the heck can't they know where this one figurehead is hiding??? I have a difficult time believing that the US couldn't do selective, strategic, surgical removal of a few GUILTY humans, i.e. the AlQuaida and Bin Ladin.

Anyway, I still love America and always will!!

 

[sv]

Arun:

Point for point -

1. You're right, the UN is a joke - because it lacks the ability to act against the 5 permanent Security Council members. All kinds of human rights violations are tolerated as a result - including the murder of Afghani civilians.

2. Concluding that the U.S "aims to kill as few civilians as possible" is ridiculous and totally ignores the basic fact that they have been carpet-bombing Afghanistan's major cities for the last 2 months.

3. The Taliban are guilty. The Afghani civilian population is not, and DID NOT CHOOSE to attack New York. If your next door neighbor rapes and murders a schoolgirl without your approval, does the girl's father have the right to blow up your house?

4. Bin Laden (assuming U.S. claims are accurate) is guilty. The Afghani civilian population is not.

5. Our "war" should be focused on those who attacked us. The Afghani civilian population did not attack anyone.

6. Why can't I get my head checked also? The fact that Bono is wrong doesn't "disillusion" me or surprise me - he's wrong lots of times - it just bothers me that a guy who does have some influence over others' thinking is so wrong and so vocal about it.

7. Bombing will not deter terrorism - never has, never will. It WILL confirm the opinion of many that the U.S. has no regard for human life. This will create lots of opponents, of which a small percentage will in turn become terrorists. Thanks in part to the U.S. response, we can all look forward to a future filled with more WTCs.

8. Me too.

9. Speculative at best. But "doing nothing" and "doing nothing to Afghani civilians who had nothing to do with the WTC attacks" are two very different responses.

10. Legally, the Taliban were not the recognized (only by 3 countries) government of Afghanistan. Al Queda and Bin Laden were not government officials and did not represent Afghanistan. Morally, the U.S. had no right to retaliate against Afghani civilians. The comment "justice is the right of the strong" demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the term justice. Clearly, you and the U.S. believe that it is just to murder an Afghani 2 year old child in response to being attacked by someone else - so the strong often have no clue as to what justice really is.

11. Try shoveling? You've certainly been shoveling enough stuff around here. (Just kidding)

 

[V Nura]

Originally posted by sv:
Arun:

Point for point -

1. You're right, the UN is a joke - because it lacks the ability to act against the 5 permanent Security Council members. All kinds of human rights violations are tolerated as a result - including the murder of Afghani civilians.

2. Concluding that the U.S "aims to kill as few civilians as possible" is ridiculous and totally ignores the basic fact that they have been carpet-bombing Afghanistan's major cities for the last 2 months.

3. The Taliban are guilty. The Afghani civilian population is not, and DID NOT CHOOSE to attack New York. If your next door neighbor rapes and murders a schoolgirl without your approval, does the girl's father have the right to blow up your house?

4. Bin Laden (assuming U.S. claims are accurate) is guilty. The Afghani civilian population is not.

5. Our "war" should be focused on those who attacked us. The Afghani civilian population did not attack anyone.

6. Why can't I get my head checked also? The fact that Bono is wrong doesn't "disillusion" me or surprise me - he's wrong lots of times - it just bothers me that a guy who does have some influence over others' thinking is so wrong and so vocal about it.

7. Bombing will not deter terrorism - never has, never will. It WILL confirm the opinion of many that the U.S. has no regard for human life. This will create lots of opponents, of which a small percentage will in turn become terrorists. Thanks in part to the U.S. response, we can all look forward to a future filled with more WTCs.

8. Me too.

9. Speculative at best. But "doing nothing" and "doing nothing to Afghani civilians who had nothing to do with the WTC attacks" are two very different responses.

10. Legally, the Taliban were not the recognized (only by 3 countries) government of Afghanistan. Al Queda and Bin Laden were not government officials and did not represent Afghanistan. Morally, the U.S. had no right to retaliate against Afghani civilians. The comment "justice is the right of the strong" demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the term justice. Clearly, you and the U.S. believe that it is just to murder an Afghani 2 year old child in response to being attacked by someone else - so the strong often have no clue as to what justice really is.

11. Try shoveling? You've certainly been shoveling enough stuff around here. (Just kidding)

1.) war kills people it's a fact. And what if a dirty nuke was used on london resulting on millions of csualties???
2.) carpet bombing??? it's not vietnam you clearly have no understanding of military technology, or tactics. and if we did "carpet bomb' major afghan cities...there would be a lot more casualties
3.) you would..if i was harboring in my house to evade prosecution
4.) they had the choice to handover bin laden..tehy didn't the oly people responsible for teh deaths of those civilians is the taliban
5.) However teh taliban regime supported those who did and thusly was attacked by us..this isn' a conventional war...innocent people die in war...it's sad but it has to happen sometimes
6.) well your wrong..and quite vocal about it. why can't he be?
7.) neither will sending bin laden a bundt cake if i have my choice..I'll take my f 15
8> ) agreed
9.)I've said this over and over..War is nasty..that why we call it war and not something nicer..yes it's a shame those people died, but like I said you can't negotiate with such regimes.
10.)Justice is the right of the strong..just ask Mr T.
11.)my question is why wasn't action taken sooner..my only real complaint with the clinton administration was that they were pretty weak on this kinda stuff. two missile strikes weren;'t enough.

 

[ocu2fan]

Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
Oh how nothing has changed since before the dawn of Christianity...

It's an "eye for an eye," yes? Or, more realistically, it is a "head for an eye."

~Melon

Melon, are you telling me that if you're family and/or loved ones were threatened with imminent danger you wouldn't try to prevent it? It seems to me that when Jesus talked about turning the other cheek he wasn't calling Christians to give up the right to self-defense.

 

[sv]

I can answer that last one. If there's one thing we should have learned from September 11, it's that we ARE threatened with imminent danger. I'll be glad when Bin Laden is no longer out there, but the U.S. policy of showing complete disregard for innocent human life in the process of finding him will only engender further (and fairly legitimate) hatred from all kinds of people, a small percentage of whom will become terrorist lunatics. That will put all of us in even MORE danger, not less.

And it's always nice to see another interpretation of Jesus' "turn the other cheek" policy that has been so widely applied by Christians (and everyone else)throughout history - the wording of the policy seemed fairly clear to me but apparently that's not the case.

 

[V Nura]

right...so...the children of aghan civilians whowere killed...( tragically I might add). Are goign to inherit fortunes and put them to use agaisnt the united states after being trained by the cia?...there's a limit to what can be created. Also..the real people those afghani civilians families should be angry at is bin laden, al qaeda and the taliban..hopefully the new government will show them the REAL events of what happened on sept 11th and not euphemized crap that theyve been getting.

one thing though SV...I do admire the fact that you do have such respect for life. And I do respect your views on the issue.

 

[I AM WHO I AM]

Could anyone put it in better words like George "The Chimp" Bush. "Its a crusade againt the terrorists" ITs always been about the crusades. In the name christianity and hatred. Reminds me of all the great crusades against Muslims. Why? Because Muslims were civilized and had 1000 libraries in Spain, Cordova at that time. And loved and cherished their christian neighbors and friends. I wonder when this crusades gonna end. Or if you wanna kill of all the muslims why dont you do so? As a muslim myself, Im angry and disgusted. All the innocent lives been lost in WTC and Afganistan was because of the hypocrates we call out leaders.

 

[garibaldo]

How is this a crusade against Muslims? Just because his speech writer used a word (that has some historical significance) when he shouldn't have doesn't mean this is a continuation of Christian persecution of different religious groups. Why don't you ask yourself who is responsible for the large fanatic wing of Islam? Is it the Christians? Nope. Why have the Muslims in Iran killed thousands and thousands of Jews, Gays, Bahai's, etc in the name of Islam in the last 20 years? Christians? Nope. I should know about this because my family had to flee Iran 20+ years ago because of this. Are they practicing Islam according to the Quran? Nope. Saying that the WTC is the fault of Christians is the same as saying the Islamic religion is responsible for attack because it was the religion of the hijackers. Why have we stepped in to save the lives of Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia? Why didn't we just let them die? Your kind of stupidity is an insult to all true Muslims and you are the kind of human filth that disgusts me. The fact that you are saying the same thing as Osama Bin Laden is a testament to this.

 

[trevster2k]

I have to agree with sv's POV. Yah, I know what an idealistic view. We don't live in a perfect world but if one person can view humanity as just that and not as american, afghani, british, etc. and spread this perspective throughout the world, wouldn't we all be better off?

I grieved for the victims of the WTC just like everyone else but I also grieve for the victims of the attacks on Afghanistan. Many of the posts on this thread never mention empathy or sadness for any of the undeserving victims in Afghanistan who just like the WTC victims had families and friends. No innocent death should be validated by "better us than them" This attitude will lead us all down a path of destruction.

Also, do any of you who disagree with sv think or know that the US government has committed any vile acts in the past or will do so in the future? Your government has and will again. Go read your history books. The american people rock, your government does not. As others have stated, the leaders are not helping the situation.

This will offend some but sorry, it has to be said. Some have commented on how horrible and devastating the attacks in NYC are to witness and once you see it, you will understand why such anger and hatred exists for the terrorists(justified) and their countrymen(unjustified). We can't even fathom how horrible life can be. We did not live during WWII when bombings in European cities were an everyday affair. The victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki wiped out in an instant. Genocide of entire villages in Rwanda ending up in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. My God, there are thousands of atrocities in the past that make the WTC attacks pale in comparison. Don't get me wrong, the WTC attacks were evil, despicable and totally undeserved and unacceptable but don't tell people because they haven't seen it, they don't know how horrible it is. I am fortunate that I cannot relate to such tragedies in life and for that I am thankful.

Shifting topics, the taliban has been committing these human rights abuses for years now. They recently destroyed the largest Buddhist statues in the world because they do not tolerate other religions. They forced non-muslims to wear symbols to show that they were not Muslim( sound familiar to the Nazis) Did anyone do anything despite the signs being there? Of course not, not us so who cares? I keep seeing posts referring to the Afghani people as being better off now since the US has overthrown the taliban. Maybe they will be, but don't make it out like the US government overthrew the Taliban to help the Afghanis. If the WTC attacks never happened, the Taliban would still be shooting people in soccer stadiums.

Terrorism will not stop after this "War on Terrorism". The IRA, hamas, al qaeda, basque separatist, etc will continue to commit acts against innocents. How or will the US stop the other terrorists in other countries? I don't mean other Arab states like Libya or Iraq. I mean Ireland, Spain, Palestine, Israel, etc. You can't just bomb the hell out of them too. Don't be fooled by any claims that terrorism will end soon. Terrorism has been around for centuries and we ( North America) have just gotten our first bitter taste of it.

The most positive thing to come out of the WTC attacks is the awakening of many many people to the fact that this is one world, one planet, one people and if we do not learn to accept, understand and relish our differences then we have no future.

That's all I got to say. Take care.

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You give it all but I want more

 

[Patti Jones]

This is absolutely out of the discussion topic...

Originally posted by *Ally*:
"We were great fans of his but he didn't
like U2 very much. "I heard he was very bad-tempered - I think it might
have been more true to say he was the grumpy Beatle rather than the
quiet one."

In an interview with Hot Press he said he supports the US-led war on
Afghanistan.

Oh! God!...and I almost believed it when some ppl said that he could be "the next Lennon"...JOHN!!!! I MIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSS YOUUUUUUU!!!!

BTW, as Drew told me the worst part in Georgie(Harrison)'s dead is that he left a world with a big war on it and nobody seeming to care...and he fought so hard against it...

Love,
This Patti (Cant keep from crying

)

Ps: Isnt it childish to think that, if you like someone's band that person should like yours?...quite more if you are talking 'bout a...BEATLE!

Pss: How am I supposed to listen to "peace on earth" now?...like "thanks for fooling me"?

Ps: Imagine all the people, living life in peace...

Now, go on...

[This message has been edited by Patti Jones (edited 12-27-2001).]

 

[DebbieSG]

Originally posted by I AM WHO I AM:
Could anyone put it in better words like George "The Chimp" Bush. "Its a crusade againt the terrorists" ITs always been about the crusades. In the name christianity and hatred. Reminds me of all the great crusades against Muslims. Why? Because Muslims were civilized and had 1000 libraries in Spain, Cordova at that time. And loved and cherished their christian neighbors and friends. I wonder when this crusades gonna end. Or if you wanna kill of all the muslims why dont you do so? As a muslim myself, Im angry and disgusted. All the innocent lives been lost in WTC and Afganistan was because of the hypocrates we call out leaders.

This gets back to Bono's statement about defending his wife and children. Christians try to live by the teaching to "turn the other cheek" but can you in this situation? Bush is Christian but he is acting in the interests of the nation, and would he really be serving it if he didn't act to defend it?

It's a shame that the word "crusade" was used because I don't think we want that event in history to be repeated, and this shouldn't be made to be a Christian versus Muslim issue. Not all Americans are Christian, for one thing. And the problem is religious fanatics who terrorize whole countries.

Like you mentioned above in the example of Spain, Muslims and Christians can live side by side peacefully. We need to look at how we are all in this together rather than polarizing based on history. We are all sickened that innocent people have died in both countries.

Christianity as it is found in the Bible never preaches hatred, except of evil, and it may be that not only our leaders but ourselves need to practice love more. As a Christian I know I am to love even my enemy. Which you've got to admit is pretty hard in this case.

 

[V Nura]

Originally posted by I AM WHO I AM:
Could anyone put it in better words like George "The Chimp" Bush. "Its a crusade againt the terrorists" ITs always been about the crusades. In the name christianity and hatred. Reminds me of all the great crusades against Muslims. Why? Because Muslims were civilized and had 1000 libraries in Spain, Cordova at that time. And loved and cherished their christian neighbors and friends. I wonder when this crusades gonna end. Or if you wanna kill of all the muslims why dont you do so? As a muslim myself, Im angry and disgusted. All the innocent lives been lost in WTC and Afganistan was because of the hypocrates we call out leaders.

This is a joke right?...I AM WHO I AM...your funny!