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[Axver]

... I know. I'm embarrassed about it, but why hide it? I was uninformed. I didn't know anything about religion, and I took the Christianity they presented to me to be "the" Christianity. As soon as I became aware of the diversity within Christianity, things changed rapidly.

 

[The Sad Punk]

Haha, wait, I didn't even notice that Left Behind was that series.

Oh well, doesn't change how I see you.

 

[Axver]

Me too, totally. It's the unfulfilledness that keeps me curious about theology and spirituality in general - I'm not necessarily looking for something to believe in, I don't think I necessarily NEED to believe in something, but I'm still curious.

For me, I find theology deeply interesting as a subject of study socially, politically, and historically. I'm not necessarily looking for something to believe in either. I don't really want to believe in anything, or to affirm strong atheism. I find agnosticism to be wonderfully intellectualy honest and open. It really satisfies my curiosity and doesn't lock me into anything.

 

[Axver]

You should all check out the Brick Testament by the way - it includes some absolutely hilarious takes on the Torah laws!

I must quote this for SuperWin. The Brick Testament seriously cracks me up.

 

[Axver]

That being said, I do base my style off him - it's fairly minimalist, and it focuses on going along with, and being a part of the song rather than forming its own part. That, of course, is because as a drummer I am Phail Collins, and probably not even as good as he was.

I do think there's a difference, however, between Larry's very effective minimalism of the early eighties, and his dull, plodding style of recent years. I feel like he's gone from trying to serve the song, to just being there and little more.

For all my prog habits, my guitar style is (was?) more minimalist than anything.

 

[The Sad Punk]

I love how Lego God's face has angry eyebrows.

 

[Axver]

From what I've heard, there are loads of "accidental" mis-translations.... the very fact that someone has sat down and picked and chosen from loads of contemporaneous texts about what is Bible-worthy and what is blasphemy, makes me doubt a lot of those sort of things in the Bible. I mean, in a literal historical sense, as well as a religious one. The fact that I doubt the existence of God and all that doesn't stop me from accepting that some of the events in the Bible may well have actually happened, in some form.

My favourite mis-translation is turning the Reed Sea into the Red Sea. Apparently it looks similar not just in English! And it has had huge bearings on the story of Moses.

And ha, now that this thread is quieting down now, I'm starting to look like a postwhore as I catch up and get shitloads of posts in a row.

 

[Axver]

We're going to look like the absolute strangest group in the world, sitting around the Botanical Gardens or whatever with a picnic basket, a cd player blasting U2, several religious texts and a lot of discussion!

And that's not even mentioning our disparate ages, looks and personalities!

That couldn't possibly be any cooler.

 

[Varitek]

... I know. I'm embarrassed about it, but why hide it? I was uninformed. I didn't know anything about religion, and I took the Christianity they presented to me to be "the" Christianity. As soon as I became aware of the diversity within Christianity, things changed rapidly.

See, I scratched my head and rolled my eyes a while ago when I heard about atheist families sending their kids to sunday school or whatever for atheist education, but this makes a case for it.

 

[The Sad Punk]

That couldn't possibly be any cooler.

I think people will walk past and be completely jealous. Because we'll be having a rocking time, and they're not invited.

Also, I must post this:

 

[Axver]

Ah, then I hope I don't disappoint you. I'll be sure to touch up on any knowledge, bring some books along, and such.

I was just starting to have the hought that I hope I don't disappoint you guys! I always fear that my phrasing in person is never as good as when I sit down and write, and that I don't seem quite as intellectual. Probably baseless, but hey, that's what being an overthinker does!

Oh, it'd be a wonderful honour to introduce you to more alcohol! You'll get a hard start by not having Coronas as your preferred beer (it is a sign of Man's failure that the most popular beer internationally is from Mexico rather than central Europe), that drinking rum and coke is a bad, boganesque habit, and that UDLs should be consumed only by adolescent girls.

I actually have no idea what UDLs even are anyway!

As for my experiences with alcohol, beyond wine all I really know is that I haven't enjoyed the beers I've tried, but that's just been Kiwi and Aussie stuff, and that I hate straight rum. I have tried a couple of other alcohols but I can't remember them now. Sad, huh? I know my wine, but forget anything else.

 

[Axver]

See, I scratched my head and rolled my eyes a while ago when I heard about atheist families sending their kids to sunday school or whatever for atheist education, but this makes a case for it.

Heh. I grew up in a non-religious context, not even an atheist one per se but just in a context where religion was not on anybody's radar. Honestly, my experience with Left Behind-style Christianity was an accident of circumstances. When my friends tried to convert me, I was still trying to adjust to life in Australia. Had I not felt like something was missing in my life and if Aussie primary school hadn't been so hard on me, I would have probably thought twice about things. But they seemed to be offering me something better, and in desperation, I jumped in. And jumped out as soon as I realised what bullshit was going down!

 

[The Sad Punk]

Can somebody tell me what the fuck is up with Luke 14:26?

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

Or should we save it for The Day?

 

[Axver]

For some reason I find "apatheists" and "ignostics" to be amusing... never heard those terms before.

Ignostic: Dude, I'm so ignorant. I don't know SQUAT. I can't make any sort of decision about God!
Apatheist: ... Meh.

Though actually, that's not quite what ignosticism is. I'm rather fond of ignosticism, not that I (currently) self-identify as an ignostic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

It can be divided into two related views about the existence of God.

The first view is that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition cannot be falsified, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. However, the answer to the question may not be meaningless; it simply depends on the meaning of the question.

The second view is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "What is meant by God?" before proclaiming the original question "Does God exist?" meaningless.

 

[Alisaura]

I'm not sure! I'll e-mail Melissa tomorrow to see what's happening. Though given how hot it will be ...

Maybe we could at least do something air conditioned? I would like to meet up in some way, get out of the house and all. Mum and Alan went back to the Gold Coast earlier and I'm feeling a bit lonely at home right now.

Sounds good! I'm up for more scaring people with unceasing U2 (or theology!) chatter in DFO's food court, if we run short of ideas

 

[Axver]

Can somebody tell me what the fuck is up with Luke 14:26?

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

This verse has always bothered me. I usually see it explained away with a simplistic "it's hyperbole emphasising the depth of devotion required!"

Along with that verse, there's also that "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" verse that doesn't quite fit cohesively with the peaceful rhetoric found through much of the Gospels, especially in the Sermon on the Mount. So much for Biblical inerrancy ...

 

[The Sad Punk]

I actually have no idea what UDLs even are anyway!

As for my experiences with alcohol, beyond wine all I really know is that I haven't enjoyed the beers I've tried, but that's just been Kiwi and Aussie stuff, and that I hate straight rum. I have tried a couple of other alcohols but I can't remember them now. Sad, huh? I know my wine, but forget anything else.

UDLs[url] are pre-mixed drinks. Do you know what [url=http://www.independentdistillers.co.uk/Portals/f362ced3-ba1c-40e2-b31b-e7cca33e6396/cruiser_uk_main.jpg]Cruisers are, those bottles of colourful drink that teenage girls often buy? They're basically the same as that, but for whatever reason, local bogans enjoy UDLs and think Cruisers are sissy - which is very much hypocritical, as both taste like lolly water.

Beer's interesting in that it takes time to grow on you. I started off drinking wines and eventually became a beer drinker when I started to respect its bitterness and found it more rewarding. There are, however, some very tasty beers that I'll try to get you to sample if I have the money, and you have a good bottle-o around.

 

[Axver]

Sounds good! I'm up for more scaring people with unceasing U2 (or theology!) chatter in DFO's food court, if we run short of ideas

We could at least choose a proper cafe or restaurant! Yikes, 36C is just made of phailure. Somehow I think strolling around in the heat is right out ...

 

[Alisaura]

This verse has always bothered me. I usually see it explained away with a simplistic "it's hyperbole emphasising the depth of devotion required!"

Along with that verse, there's also that "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" verse that doesn't quite fit cohesively with the peaceful rhetoric found through much of the Gospels, especially in the Sermon on the Mount. So much for Biblical inerrancy ...

Hello self-contradiction! I was somewhat relieved when I found out that the Bible isn't one cohesive volume (okay, two), but bits and pieces of loads of other texts that have been kinda cobbled together. I still wonder why they left those very inconsistent bits in...

It's a case for either shoddy editing, or an accurate portrayal of some very confusing mixed messages that were flying about at the time...

And omg, where did the last hour go?!

Seeya folks

 

[Alisaura]

We could at least choose a proper cafe or restaurant! Yikes, 36C is just made of phailure. Somehow I think strolling around in the heat is right out ...

Proper cafe... with air con...

 

[Alisaura]

*runs before any more tempting posts appear*

 

[Axver]

Haha, wait, I didn't even notice that Left Behind was that series.

Oh well, doesn't change how I see you.

Thanks.

Actually, part of the reason I'm here, having this discussion now, is indirectly due to Left Behind. As it dawned on me that Christianity was not just the one viewpoint my two friends presented to me, I wanted to know what it was. That's where my interest in theology came from, as I very quickly discarded the embarrassing shit that I couldn't believe had been sold to me, and I tried to find the good stuff instead. As it happened, I cruised through liberal Christianity for a few years until the house of cards collapsed in early 2006 (though I didn't tell everyone about my agnosticism until late last year, for various reasons).

 

[Varitek]

http://wonkette.com/367259/keith-olbermanns-special-comment-on-hillary-is-horrifying

for keith olberman

 

[Axver]

UDLs are pre-mixed drinks. Do you know what Cruisers are, those bottles of colourful drink that teenage girls often buy? They're basically the same as that, but for whatever reason, local bogans enjoy UDLs and think Cruisers are sissy - which is very much hypocritical, as both taste like lolly water.

Ahhh, right. I know what you mean. I remember that when Kate's Aussie family discovered she not only didn't drink alcohol, but didn't like anything they gave her to try, they gave her something like that and she somewhat liked it. I remember her describing it to me and I made fun of her for drinking "pseudo-alcohol".

Beer's interesting in that it takes time to grow on you. I started off drinking wines and eventually became a beer drinker when I started to respect its bitterness and found it more rewarding. There are, however, some very tasty beers that I'll try to get you to sample if I have the money, and you have a good bottle-o around.

I grew up drinking both wine and beer, actually. When I was little, I had just as much of my relatives' beer as I did wine. I just found that I preferred the flavour and texture of wines, and by the time I was about nine, I was consciously favouring wine over beer whenever I was offered a little glass of my own alcohol.

Also, being raised around alcohol is made of win. I always had the taste for it, so I'm not like my friends who find red wine repulsive and struggle to acquire a taste for it; I always drank responsibly; and it was never some "forbidden fruit" so I wasn't like those idiot 15 year olds you see who go out and binge drink like mad when Mum and Dad aren't looking.

 

[Axver]

Hello self-contradiction! I was somewhat relieved when I found out that the Bible isn't one cohesive volume (okay, two), but bits and pieces of loads of other texts that have been kinda cobbled together. I still wonder why they left those very inconsistent bits in...

It's a case for either shoddy editing, or an accurate portrayal of some very confusing mixed messages that were flying about at the time...

And omg, where did the last hour go?!

Seeya folks

Yeah, I just don't get quite how some of that stuff ended up the way it did. I mean, surely they were aware of the inconsistencies? Then again, the people who compiled the Biblical canon were understanding and interpreting the texts in ways completely foreign and unfamiliar to those of us almost 2,000 years down the track.

And shit, this evening has shot by. Have a good night!

I should go soon too ...

 

[The Sad Punk]

Thanks.

Actually, part of the reason I'm here, having this discussion now, is indirectly due to Left Behind. As it dawned on me that Christianity was not just the one viewpoint my two friends presented to me, I wanted to know what it was. That's where my interest in theology came from, as I very quickly discarded the embarrassing shit that I couldn't believe had been sold to me, and I tried to find the good stuff instead. As it happened, I cruised through liberal Christianity for a few years until the house of cards collapsed in early 2006 (though I didn't tell everyone about my agnosticism until late last year, for various reasons).

Haha, I let go of Christianity in early '06 too. In fact, I'll never forget it, because it was around the time I turned 17. Unlike you, though (I won't ask about the reasons) - I immediately told my mother about my doubts because I knew she would understand. It was very complex. Mum didn't try to force anything on me, she did understand. She suggested I talked to the priest about it, which I did, and that's when I noticed his massive library on books about different religions (and a pretty keen CD collection, I copied a few onto his iPod after our talks while he was working on material. He would give me some crispy Stella Artois in return). So, because of this I didn't lost faith in the people that still had the faith, and continued to attend Church for a while, just for the sake of learning.

 

[The Sad Punk]

Also, being raised around alcohol is made of win. I always had the taste for it, so I'm not like my friends who find red wine repulsive and struggle to acquire a taste for it; I always drank responsibly; and it was never some "forbidden fruit" so I wasn't like those idiot 15 year olds you see who go out and binge drink like mad when Mum and Dad aren't looking.

I grew up around booze too. Not that my family were alcoholics, they were just lax about me being aware of it. I am indeed the only person I know who attended Sunday School hungover after accidentally drinking a glass of port at the age of two or three, mistaking it for cola. I'd get swigs of beer every now and then before turning 10, which didn't harm me in the least. I didn't enjoy it those times, however - perhaps because it was a lesser Australian lager, or maybe just because I had to settle into beer.

Seriously, I don't understand why the legal age is 21 in the States. Unbelievably high, for no good reason. I think 18 is a good age. 16 year olds are, on reflection, usually a little more rowdy and don't have the pocket money for frequent purchase of Coopers Pale Ale cartons, so I'm sort of happy that it was increased.

 

[Axver]

http://wonkette.com/367259/keith-olbermanns-special-comment-on-hillary-is-horrifying

for keith olberman

Holy shit, Olbermann for the SuperWin! He's got to be one of the very few sane political commentators I've seen from the mainstream American media.

 

[Axver]

Haha, I let go of Christianity in early '06 too. In fact, I'll never forget it, because it was around the time I turned 17. Unlike you, though (I won't ask about the reasons) - I immediately told my mother about my doubts because I knew she would understand. It was very complex. Mum didn't try to force anything on me, she did understand. She suggested I talked to the priest about it, which I did, and that's when I noticed his massive library on books about different religions (and a pretty keen CD collection, I copied a few onto his iPod after our talks while he was working on material. He would give me some crispy Stella Artois in return). So, because of this I didn't lost faith in the people that still had the faith, and continued to attend Church for a while, just for the sake of learning.

Wow, I'm glad things went so well for you there. I was lucky in that I had relatively few connections to religion. I had never been a regular churchgoer and had no real community. My main fear was letting down people I respected, and at the time I was still with Kate. She emphasised that she wanted to be with someone who was a Christian. I felt intellectually stifled, like I could only reach certain acceptable answers. But my intellectual curiosity is really my main driving force, and religion just crumbled around me. Although I say I was an agnostic from early 2006, at that point it was only implicit agnosticism and I didn't self-identify as such until early 2007. It was a gradual process, and during last year, I was reading Paul Tillich as the last attempt to find something that it might respark belief. But when Dynamics Of Faith did nothing for me, I knew there was no going back.

Luckily everybody I respect took it well. In fact, everything's better than before. I wish I hadn't dithered and let the process be so gradual now.

 

[Axver]

I grew up around booze too. Not that my family were alcoholics, they were just lax about me being aware of it. I am indeed the only person I know who attended Sunday School hungover after accidentally drinking a glass of port at the age of two or three, mistaking it for cola. I'd get swigs of beer every now and then before turning 10, which didn't harm me in the least. I didn't enjoy it those times, however - perhaps because it was a lesser Australian lager, or maybe just because I had to settle into beer.

Sunday School with a hangover?

Alcohol was just part of my family's culture. It was a perfectly normal thing to have around, and they would happily let me have a little, just as long as it wasn't enough to get me drunk. My father's a wine connossieur and would take me around vineyards with him. I remember having great fun picking grapes during the harvest in about 1994. I know that by the time I was seven, my favourite wine was Ata Rangi pinot noir. Very good stuff, that.

Seriously, I don't understand why the legal age is 21 in the States. Unbelievably high, for no good reason.

I think it can be summarised in one word: Puritans.

I agree 18 is the ideal age. Though my family always flouted it for me before I turned 18. At family dinners at restaurants, my mother would order a glass of wine, but she very rarely drinks the stuff (she says most of it has tasted like vinegar to her ever since she became pregnant with me!), so although the wine was ostensibly for her, I would drink it all!