The Official NFL Thread, Part Two

[toscano]

the chargers clearly got the better deal with LT vs. Vick. the jury is in, the verdict has been handed down... Tomlinson is one of the greatest runningbacks of all time. Vick is a pretty good running back, too. Problem is he's a damned shitty quarterback.

now on to Eli...

we've seen moments of greatness from eli... every so often it appears as if he's taken the next step, only to fall back 2 steps the next week. i can not blame him one iota for yesterday's colapse. the first INT was 100% not his fault. the second one was, but it was in a situation where he never should have been in to begin with. up until that first INT, which was completely plaxico burress' fault (many of eli's INT's end up because of plax fucking up), eli was doing a very good job of game management.

philip rivers has yet to play a full season, and he has the best running back in football next to him. tiki is a great runner, yes. but even he doesn't compare to the multi-thread that is Ladanian Tomlinson. No one does. To steal a quote from the Tuna, let's hold off on the anointing oils. Half a succesful season does not a great quarterback make.

they may be leaning towards rivers at the moment, but the jury is certainly still out on that one.

No one's anointing Rivers yet, but he's certainly at best, no worse than Eli Manning now, or at the same stages in their "starter" career.

Throw in the fact that the picks the Giants gave up to get Manning turned out to be Luis Castillo, stud DT with 5 sacks on the year so far and the ever-reliable Nate Kaeding, certainly looks like the chargers have come out ahead !

 

[phanan]

Actually, one of the those picks was Shawn Merriman, not Castillo. He was their own pick.

But that makes the trade even better.

 

[speedracer]

The Cowboys have just dropped Mike Vanderjagt off the team after he sucked for 11 games.

As much as I enjoy watching a bozo suffer this sort of misfortune, this is a big mistake by the Cowboys. Yeah, maybe his skills are slipping or maybe he has turned into a headcase after last year's debacle against the Steelers. But if you're going to cut one of the most accurate FG kickers in NFL history, you better have somebody better than Martin Gramatica as a solution.

Of course, my biggest fear now is that the Patriots will sign him.

 

[popacrobat]

he was 13-18 on FG's on the year. he's a headcase and I would probably rather have Automatica as well over Vanderjagt at this point.

 

[Numb1075]

Man, am I full.

I just ate a New York Giant sandwich.

I ate 3 quarters of it and then I choked.


zing

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

No one's anointing Rivers yet, but he's certainly at best, no worse than Eli Manning now, or at the same stages in their "starter" career.

Throw in the fact that the picks the Giants gave up to get Manning turned out to be Luis Castillo, stud DT with 5 sacks on the year so far and the ever-reliable Nate Kaeding, certainly looks like the chargers have come out ahead !

kaeding who of course choked away the chargers playoff game against the jets his rookie season... castillo wasn't the giants pick... shawne merriman was. merriman is, of course, a beast, and if he stays off the juice (or gets a better wizzinator) is probably the best linebacker in the NFL.

would i like to have merriman? of course... who wouldn't. but you can't use merriman, because in all likely hood the giants wouldn't have drafted him, anyways. merriman slipped in the draft because of questions about his character. a bunch of teams passed on him... and the giants likely would have, too.

 

[phanan]

Well, Merriman was one of the picks they got from the Giants, so if one is analyzing who got the better of the trade, so far the Chargers have. I don't think it really matters if the Giants had picked him or not. The Chargers did with a pick they originally didn't have, so that has to be a factor.

Regardless, it's still too early to tell what kind of a quarterback Manning, or even Rivers, will be for the long haul.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

i do believe that tom coughlin is helping to ruin eli's career and wouldn't mind him leaving at season's end regardless of how this season ends up.

 

[Hewson]

Archie will see to TomCoff getting canned so Eli doesn't lose any of his money.

(No concerns in the Manning household about winning titles, just getting the most bucks)

 

[toscano]

kaeding who of course choked away the chargers playoff game against the jets his rookie season... castillo wasn't the giants pick... shawne merriman was. merriman is, of course, a beast, and if he stays off the juice (or gets a better wizzinator) is probably the best linebacker in the NFL.

would i like to have merriman? of course... who wouldn't. but you can't use merriman, because in all likely hood the giants wouldn't have drafted him, anyways. merriman slipped in the draft because of questions about his character. a bunch of teams passed on him... and the giants likely would have, too.

You CAN use Merriman, since that WAS the trade, actually I think there was even another draft pick involved that NY gave up too, but can't be bothered looking it up.

So, its Kaeding, Merriman, Rivers and some other guy (?) for Manning. Clearly a "win" for San Diego based on performances to date.

I am neither a Chargers or Giants fan by the way.

 

[Screwtape2]

So, its Kaeding, Merriman, Rivers and some other guy (?) for Manning. Clearly a "win" for San Diego based on performances to date.

I am neither a Chargers or Giants fan by the way.

Clearly a win? As it has been mentioned before, Kaeding missed a field goal that lost the Chargers a playoff game. Rivers is leading the Chargers to a division title but so did Eli and hell he might do it again this season. As for Merriman, the guy has tested positive for steriods. Rivers has one of the best running backs of all time to hand of to while Eli has a retiring back and Plexico "quit-on-your-route" Burress. Eli has had to win games while Rivers has LT to throw and handoff to. How can you call the Manning trade a clear win for the Chargers?

 

[toscano]

Clearly a win? As it has been mentioned before, Kaeding missed a field goal that lost the Chargers a playoff game. Rivers is leading the Chargers to a division title but so did Eli and hell he might do it again this season. As for Merriman, the guy has tested positive for steriods. Rivers has one of the best running backs of all time to hand of to while Eli has a retiring back and Plexico "quit-on-your-route" Burress. Eli has had to win games while Rivers has LT to throw and handoff to. How can you call the Manning trade a clear win for the Chargers?

Easy.

Kaeding a bad miss, yes. One bad miss does not a career make. But you as a Giants fan ought to know all about those with Feely. This year so far he's 17 of 19, with a long of 54. Better than feely is doing, or has ever done (if he keeps it up). So, they got a younger kicker who is currently playing at a higher level than Feely.

Merriman is a monster, do I really need to go into it ? 8 anda half sacks in 8 games so far this year. Just those 2 alone could go a long way to justify the trade. Throw in Rivers, who despite having Lt take a lot of plays away from the QB is throwing for 220 ypg, with a completion % of 65, a YPA of 7.4 and a TD/INT ratio of 2.5 to 1.

just to put that in perspective, Manning, with a slouch like Tiki Barber to hand off to (sarcasm was on) , has never in any year had a completion ratio that high, a TD to INT ratio that high (not even close), or a YPA that high. And even with LT there, Rivers has thrown almost as many TD's as Manning.

Having a young stud pass-rushing DE AND a franchise QB in the making AND a reliable kicker isn't coming out ahead when all you had to give up was one franchise QB ?


You're looking at it with Giants-colored glasses my friend

 

[Screwtape2]

1. I'm a Colts fan.
2. The Chargers have a great regular season kicker who just lost them a game when it counts.
3. You completely ignored the fact that Merriman used steriods.
4. Look at the difference in schedule. The Chargers have played the Ravens, a Denver team going to their backup and a KC team likely to be bounced out of the playoff bubble. The Giants however will have played Indianapolis, Seattle, Dallas twice, Chicago and New Orleans.
5. In Eli's breakout season last year, Tiki touched the ball as much as LT has this year. Look at the difference:
Manning (2005) 3,762 Passing Yards and 24 Touchdowns
Rivers (2006)-Projected to have: 3,549 PY and 22 Touchdowns
Eli has better stats

So we are left with a juiced DE, a kicker with a playoff history consisting only of a lost game on a bad kick and a QB with stats in his breakout season less than Manning's for a quarterback who has shown moments of greatness. Yeah, a slam dunk for the Chargers.

Maybe these will jog your memory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ct9cK_43HY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9OxK3KovAc

 

[toscano]

1. I'm a Colts fan.
2. The Chargers have a great regular season kicker who just lost them a game when it counts.

In that regard is he any different than any other kicker ? No. He's not as bad as some, like, say a certain Colts kicker last year !

Kaeding is 5th most accurate kicker in the league to date this year.

3. You completely ignored the fact that Merriman used steriods.

Then we'll see how well he does when he gets back.

4. Look at the difference in schedule. The Chargers have played the Ravens, a Denver team going to their backup and a KC team likely to be bounced out of the playoff bubble.

The Chargers are in a stronger division than the NFC East.

To-date:

NFCE - 22 wins
AFCW - 25 wins

Charger - Beaten 3 teams with a winning record

2 losses by a combined 6 points.


Giants - Beaten 1 team with a winning record

6 losses by a combined 54 points
[/B][/QUOTE]

Manning (2005) 3,762 Passing Yards and 24 Touchdowns
Rivers (2006)-Projected to have: 3,549 PY and 22 Touchdowns
Eli has better stats

]

Conveniently, you neglect the INT's. Rivers is on track for only 9, MUCH better than Manning's 17. Turnovers kill ya every time. Ask, oh, Manning.....

Manning's QBR last year: 75.9
Rivers' QBR this year: 94.5

So, we're left with: One of the league's leding pass rushers who may or may not have his performance illegally enhanced, we shall see. The 5th most accurate kicker in the league, and a QB on track to a breakout season better than the guy he was traded for (of course you don't count the picks in that assessment, but anyone who knows anything about football knows the impact of turnovers)

So as a Colts fan I guess it's the Manning-colored glasses you need to take off. Like big bro, he's choking in the big games too.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Falcons QB Micheal Vick fined 20 Large for his double finger salute to the fans.

 

[toscano]

Archie will see to TomCoff getting canned so Eli doesn't lose any of his money.

(No concerns in the Manning household about winning titles, just getting the most bucks)

Has any Manning ever actually won a title after high school ?

Seems to me IIRC that Peyton choked away a few opportunities in college, destined to be another Marino I guess. Pretty stats, great arm, wilts under fire.

Don't recall Brady or Montana throwing their teammates under the bus like Manning has done with his OL/Kicker in the past.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Having a young stud pass-rushing DE AND a franchise QB in the making AND a reliable kicker isn't coming out ahead when all you had to give up was one franchise QB ?

anyone who knows anything about football

anyone who knows anything about football knows that shawne merriman is an outside linebacker who only shifts to d-end on certain schemes the chargers call.

and anyone who knows anything about football knows, injruies aside, that even if merriman was primarily a d-end, the giants aren't exactly hurting in that category considering that both of their d-end's made the pro-bowl last year.

 

[toscano]

anyone who knows anything about football knows that shawne merriman is an outside linebacker who only shifts to d-end on certain schemes the chargers call.

and anyone who knows anything about football knows, injruies aside, that even if merriman was primarily a d-end, the giants aren't exactly hurting in that category considering that both of their d-end's made the pro-bowl last year.

Still doesn't negate that the Giants gave up more than they got in the trade.

They could sure use Merriman right now !

Or they could have used that pick to fill another hole at the time, lots of good players at #12 !

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

if eli turns out to be a bust, then it's an awful trade.

if eli turns into the quarterback they thought he would, wins a championship, then no one gives a crap about shawne merriman and a friggin kicker.

so, thus then, if you're sold that eli will forever suck, then it's a bad trade. if you've watched every single game he's played in his NFL career, seen his highest highs and lowest lows, and aren't quite ready to give up on him after just two seasons, then the jury is still out.

 

[MrPryck2U]

As a Giant fan, I think they should stick with Eli. The jury is still out. Same thing with Rivers.

 

[popacrobat]

i hate all mannings but i dont mind eli so much just because he doesnt seem like a huge flaming douchebag like peyton is. but to say he will suck forever is a bit of a stretch. agreed that the jury is still out, but as of now it looks like the chargers got a pretty good deal out of it. if however manning develops into an elite quarterback like he's supposed to, then as headache said nobody will give five shits about nate kaeding and shawn merriman.

i would give it another 2-3 years before accurately judging this trade. rivers could fall completely apart next year or later this year. he's played what, 11, 12 games? whoopdie do.

 

[toscano]

so, thus then, if you're sold that eli will forever suck, then it's a bad trade. if you've watched every single game he's played in his NFL career, seen his highest highs and lowest lows, and aren't quite ready to give up on him after just two seasons, then the jury is still out.

I guess we'll just wait until the end of everyone's career and decide then and only then if it was a good trade or not.

Likewise, we should do the same with the Vick trade.

If the Giants fans are happy with it, good for them. Living close to them I know the Chargers fans think they got the better of both deals. Everyone's happy. No need to discuss.

 

[zoney!]

i hate all mannings but i dont mind eli so much just because he doesnt seem like a huge flaming douchebag like peyton is.

Tell me more about your opinion on what a "flaming douchebag" is.......just curious.

 

[popacrobat]

Tell me more about your opinion on what a "flaming douchebag" is.......just curious.

somebody whos a gigantic douchebag... aka peyton manning for a plethora of reasons.

 

[zoney!]

like what reasons?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I guess we'll just wait until the end of everyone's career and decide then and only then if it was a good trade or not.

Likewise, we should do the same with the Vick trade.

vick and tomlinson are both established NFL veterans. rivers, eli manning and merriman are not. big difference.

when rivers and eli have both been in the league for 6 years like vick and tomlinson, then you can make the judgement.


ya see... the way things look right now the chargers let a guy walk who might threaten dan marino's single season record for passing yards for rivers.

who's having the better year? drew brees by far. but if rivers leads the team to the super bowl, who gives a shit about brees, right?

same thing with eli vs. rivers. if rivers ultimately turns out to be the better QB, but eli is solid and helps lead the giants to a championship, then who gives a shit about who got the better of the trade... both teams are happy.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

like what reasons?

consistantly throwing his teammates under the bus.

now many other people do that and don't get treated the same way... tiki barber for one. he's beloved, but he throws his guys under the bus all the time.

i guess it's that peyton is considered to be this all time great QB, yet consistantly chokes in the big game and has the tendency to blame someone else when it happens that makes many people think he's an uber-douche.

probably not completely fair, but i would imagine that's the main reason.

 

[Hewson]

Cut that meat.

 

[toscano]

vick and tomlinson are both established NFL veterans. rivers, eli manning and merriman are not. big difference.

when rivers and eli have both been in the league for 6 years like vick and tomlinson, then you can make the judgement.

No no no, we can't. We must wait. After all "one day" one of them may lead their team to a championship a la trent dilfer. We must wait.

ya see... the way things look right now the chargers let a guy walk who might threaten dan marino's single season record for passing yards for rivers.

Oh, you mean another no-title strong armed QB who chokes in the big one ? Another pretty stats guy ?

And since we're on the "ya see"'s, the Giants as part of the package gave away someone who might threaten Strahan's sack record. As well as what might be a QB with more heart. We shall see, eh ? Let us wait......

who's having the better year? drew brees by far. but if rivers leads the team to the super bowl, who gives a shit about brees, right?

same thing with eli vs. rivers. if rivers ultimately turns out to be the better QB, but eli is solid and helps lead the giants to a championship, then who gives a shit about who got the better of the trade... both teams are happy.

A Manning winning a national title ? yah, right !

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

this argument is completely useless.

you're talking about a comparison between one guy who hasn't started a full season yet and a guy who's barely completed two full seasons vs. guys who've had at least 5 full seasons as NFL starters.

after 5 years if eli still sucks and rivers is still good, yes... chargers win, giants fucked up.

in 5 years if brees is a hall of famer and rivers sucks, chargers fucked up. if eli's good on top of it and merriman continues to have drug related issues, chargers fucked up big time.

it's still way too early to tell on both sides. eli's been in the league longer and has more experience. so if you want to lean that he sucks, fine. rivers hasn't done shit yet. merriman has had one great year and a year in which he's been suspended for taking illegal steroids. quite a big difference between comparing a guy who's breaking every record in the book vs. a 6 year vet with a 1 to 1 career TD to INT ratio.

two/three seaons into your nfl career, ya really don't have the complete story on how good a QB can be. 6 years? yea... ya know what he is by then.