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Old 08-12-2005, 10:10 PM   #1
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Native american mascots for sports teams

This was brought up in the NFL thread and I was wondering what people thought of it.

How do you feel about people who protest Native American mascots because it is degrading to Native American culture. I don't agree with it at all. It's too easy of an issue to argue. There's no opposition. If anyone tries to oppose them, they just say, "You don't know how I feel, I'm of Native American descent, and this degradation of my culture hurts me more than you can imagine". I just think that you can't know if these groups are genuine or not.

How does everyone else feel?
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:14 PM   #2
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I also think that it, if anything, it promotes Native American culture since people actually know the names of Native American tribes.

Without the Illini, I wouldn't know that there was an Indian tribe called the Illiniwek.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:36 PM   #3
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If you were not familiar with Illiniwek and went to schools in Illinois, the system has failed you.

Anyway, my senior ethics thesis for college (I was a journalism major) was on newspapers that decided to no longer use indian team names in their articles. This was back in 1995 (yes, I am old).

All Minnesota High Schools (except for two "tribal" schools) did away with their native amrican names in the early 90's.

I do not understand why a school WOULDN'T change their name. In fact, I still believe UND's (North Dakota) Hockey arena fiasco is probably what pushed the NCAA over the line. An alum whould only give a significant amount of cash for the arena IF the school would keep the Sioux logo prominent throughout the arena. It is on the ice, in the walls, in a tile floor in the entrance...etc. etc. etc.

I really think the school sold out.

I will not go into the Chief at the UofI...but I found the argument entertaining for the 1 1/2 years I was in Champaign.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:39 PM   #4
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Sweet Lord.
No. Chief. Arguements.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:41 PM   #5
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LOL

Yes...that's why I did not bring it up.

It is an argument no one wins.

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Old 08-12-2005, 10:46 PM   #6
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Same thing with my Highschool


Although it was ironic for a wealthy white uppermiddle class (which I am not a part of ) area to have a school called "the plainsmen" (shenendehowa), and their mascot being an "Indian", I don't know, I thought it was a respectful way. I don't really get that.

Aren't we supposed to support our American history?


All our schools are Native names, but now we had to change our mascot. Ironically, a cowboy was an option. And so was a dinosaur. But a stallion won - the shen stallions.


I mean, if natives are honestly offended by it, so be it, they're getting their will done, apparently.


But I think america is too PC sometimes, and like other countries say "American's can't eat bitter".....

BUt that is going off topic, a little.



I don't know.
I'm not native, so I can't say, really.

But I would think a team like the Atlanta Braves, who won more than a few world series, would be a great thing, you know?
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:50 PM   #7
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You've got 2 choices:

A Giant Douche

or

A Turd Sandwich
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Old 08-12-2005, 11:55 PM   #8
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I enjoy tasteless ethnic jokes as much as the next guy, but consider the following:

There are few complaints about the Fighting Irish, Raging Cajuns, Gaels, Quakers, Rebels, Cowboys and their associated mascots. Probably because these names are associated to groups that are non-minorities or have generally been well-integrated into society.

Now imagine that there's a team called the "Whites" in South Korea. Or a team called the "Arabs" in Israel. If you were a member of either of these minority groups in the respective countries, you'd probably feel really uncomfortable.

If enough people from the group in question have a beef with the name and/or mascot, it should be scrapped.
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:41 AM   #9
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My parents are from West Bengal, India but I don't complain about the Cincinnati Bengals
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by unosdostres14
My parents are from West Bengal, India but I don't complain about the Cincinnati Bengals
I'll remember to refer to them as the "Bengalis" if I ever need to mention them to you (which is probably not too likely). And I'll write a letter to the Bengalis requesting that they play more awful Bhangra music over the PA during games (different region, but whatever).
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:08 AM   #11
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The part of this I find disgusting is that the NCAA will go to great lengths to put their nose in petty business like this when most universities cannot graduate even half of its student-athletes. Players are interviewed after games and cannot string together one coherent thought, then are seen driving around campus in vehicles that are inconsistent with their financial means.

Point blank, there is a ton of cheating going on in major college sports, but a complete idiot like Myles Brand is going to go after schools that have indian nicknames. Where are the priorities here?
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:22 AM   #12
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Here is a letter of rebuttal from the Pres. of North Dakota State. Very well written and shows what an arbitrary governing body the NCAA has become.

---------------------------------------

An Open Letter from UND President Charles Kupchella to the NCAA

8/12/2005

August 12, 2005



An Open Letter to the NCAA:



The quiet serenity of our beautiful campus was disturbed early August 5 by news reports that the NCAA had decided to address the Indian nickname issue. The early reports were unclear; the words mascot, nickname, and logo were used interchangeably, and the loaded words “abusive” and “hostile” were invoked without definition and without any real clear idea as to how they were being applied. We don’t have a mascot, and our logo was designed by a very well-respected American Indian artist. We couldn’t imagine that these reports would apply to us.



Later, we saw the full release. While it looked like the action taken by the NCAA was insulting, and a flagrant abuse of power, we knew that good, well-meaning people were involved in the decision and we wanted to consider our reaction carefully.



We were initially stunned by the charge “abusive” and “hostile,” and then angry. We reflected and gave it a week before drafting this response. I must admit to sinking at one point during the past week to the notion that my Association was guilty of “political correctness run amok” as suggested by some papers.



We want to file an appeal, but first we need to know the basis for your decisions. We need the answers to some questions first, in other words.



I do not wish to take up the issue, here, of any absolute or general “correctness” of using American Indian imagery. Those on both sides of the issue have long ago made up their minds, and no amount of talking over many years seems to have moved anyone from one side of the issue to the other. Suffice it to say, some choose to be insulted by the use of these terms; others are befuddled by this reaction to what they consider to be an honor. What I would like to take up here is a matter of the appropriateness and legality of the NCAA’s action. I mean to take up the issue of whether the NCAA has gone over the edge and out of bounds in the action announced on Friday.


Is it the use of Indian names, images, and/or mascots to which you are opposed? If it is all of the above, which logos, images, and mascots do you indict by your announcement? Is it only certain ones? As I said, a very respected Indian artist designed and created a logo for the University. The logo is not unlike those found on United States coins and North Dakota highway patrol cars and highway signs. So we can’t imagine that the use of this image is “abusive” or “hostile” in any sense of these words.


Is it the use of the names of tribes that you find hostile and abusive?



Not long ago I took a trip to make a proposal to establish an epidemiological program to support American Indian health throughout the Upper Great Plains. On this trip I left a state called North Dakota. (Dakota is one of the names the indigenous people of this region actually call themselves.) I flew over South Dakota, crossing the Sioux River several times, and finally landed in Sioux City, Iowa, just south of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. The airplane in which I traveled that day was called a Cheyenne.



I think you should find my confusion here understandable, since obviously if we were to call our teams “The Dakotans,” we would actually be in more direct violation of what apparently you are trying to establish as a rule, even though this is the name of our state. This situation, of course, is not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Illinois.


Is it only when some well-meaning people object to the use of the names of tribes? If so, what standard did you use to decide where the line from acceptable to “hostile” and “abusive” is crossed? We note that you exempted a school with a certain percentage of American Indian students. We have more than 400 American Indian students here. Who decided that a certain percentage was okay, but our percentage was not? Where is the line between okay and hostile/abusive?



We have two Sioux tribes based here in North Dakota. One has, in fact, objected to our use of the name, “Sioux,” applied to our sports teams. The other said it was okay, provided that we took steps to ensure that some good comes of it, in educating people and students about the cultural heritage of this region. This mix of opinions is apparently not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Florida.


Is it only about applying names to sports teams? If so, would this be extended to the use of the names of all people, or is it just American Indians? Why would you exempt the “Fighting Irish” from your consideration, for example? Or “Vikings,” which are really fighting Scandinavians, or “Warriors,” which I suppose could be described as fighting anybodies? Wouldn’t it be “discrimination on account of race” to have a policy that applies to Indians but not to Scandinavians or the Irish, or anybody else for that matter? This seems especially profound in light of a letter to me from President Brand (8/9/05) in which he, in very broad-brush fashion and inconsistent with the NCAA’s recent much narrower pronouncement, said, “we believe that mascots, nicknames or images deemed hostile or abusive in terms of race, ethnicity or national origin should not be visible at our events.” (my emphasis)



As to the flagrant abuse of power question, I want to make sure I have this straight. We’ve recently built some magnificent facilities costing well over $100 million, under rules permitting us to host championship tournaments and otherwise participate fully in NCAA sanctioned activities, in which the very architecture of the building incorporates names and images of American Indian people. Do you really expect us now to spend large amounts of money to erase what we consider to be respectful images and names of Indian people who inhabited this region in the interest of the NCAA Executive Committee?



Hostile and abusive??



Help me understand why you think “hostile and abusive” applies to us. We have more than 25 separate programs in support of American Indian students here receiving high-end university educations. Included among these is an “Indians Into Medicine” program, now 30+ years running, that has generated 20 percent of all American Indian doctors in the United States. We have a similar program in Nursing, one in Clinical Psychology, and we are about to launch an “Indians into Aviation” program in conjunction with our world-class Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences. I am very proud when I visit reservations in our state to see that a large number of the teachers, doctors, Tribal College presidents, and other leaders are graduates of the University of North Dakota.



Do you really expect us to host a tournament in which these names and images are covered in some way that would imply that we are ashamed of them?



Concerning tournaments already scheduled: Is the NCAA taking the position that it can actually unilaterally modify a contract already made? Perhaps the charge (sometimes heard) that the NCAA exhibits too much of the arrogance that comes from its status as a monopoly – apart from the question of whether it’s an effective organization – does indeed have a basis.



If the NCAA has all this power, why not use it to restore intercollegiate athletics to the ideal of sportsmanship by decoupling intercollegiate athletics from its corruption by big budgets? Why not use the power to put a halt to the out-of-control financial arms race that threatens to corrupt even higher education itself?



Yes, I know that in theory the NCAA is actually an association, and that UND is a member of it, and therefore it’s really we who are doing all of these things to ourselves, or failing to do all of these things ourselves. But is the NCAA really a democratic organization? Why did we not put these issues to a vote by all member schools??



In his USA Today essay, Myles Brand proclaimed that this is a teachable moment, suggesting that the NCAA decision is “aimed at initiating a discussion on a national basis about how American Indians have been characterized . . . .” Great idea! Let’s have the discussion – one that we should have had before this ruling was handed down, one that actually includes American Indians and puts this in the perspective of all that is important to them at this time in history. And while we are at it, why not also address the state of intercollegiate athletics – whether or not student-athletes at some schools are being exploited, and whether or not there is an out-of-control financial “arms race” threatening the integrity of higher education itself.



In considering how to appeal, we find it exasperating that we can’t tell what the basis for your initial decision was and how you singled us out in the first place. In a letter from Myles Brand to me (8/9/05) he suggests that we could, in an appeal, argue that our symbols or mascots do not create a hostile or abusive environment. But his letter also seems to suggest that as long as some think the environment is hostile, case closed.



By the way, the last time this issue was stirred up on our campus, a formal charge was made to the Office for Civil Rights that the use of our logo or nickname created a hostile environment here at the University. The Office for Civil Rights sent a half-dozen people to our campus. They fanned out across campus and after more than a week here, found no such thing. Did the Executive Committee find some things they missed, perhaps? Or does a committee in Indianapolis trump the Office for Civil Rights here, on the ground, in North Dakota?



Finally, I expect that we will file an appeal, because should we wish to take this issue to court, the courts would undoubtedly ask if we have exhausted all administrative remedies. Please send us the appropriate application forms, and give us an indication of how the appeal will be heard and when. If the timing of this appeal were such that your deadline occurs before the appeal is resolved, we would ask that the deadline be put off, otherwise we may well have to go to the expense of seeking an injunction halting the imposition of these policies until all of our questions can be answered satisfactorily.



We thank you in advance for considering our questions.



Sincerely,



Charles E. Kupchella

President

-------------------------------


It seems as though the NCAA has failed to explain itself and the criteria it used in deciding which schools were among the offending party.
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Old 08-13-2005, 08:43 AM   #13
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This'll be my last post on the subject, because this isn't feckin' FYM here. Promise.

Yes, yes, we all know the NCAA is a bunch of pompous and incompetent bureaucratic blowhards. That's rather beside the point.

But the key point that the Prez of NDSU misses is that it really makes a difference when it's a minority that's being caricatured. "Fighting Negroes" wouldn't go over so well, would it?

In the case of Native American tribes, there's a simple test -- just ask the appropriate tribal council(s) if they're comfortable with the name/mascot or not. In the case of NDSU, I'd say that one tribe objecting is enough.

The point is this: these nicknames, mascots, logos etc. treat these groups as novelties, as somehow distinct from mainstream American society. If we believe that it is an important goal to create an integrated society, then these names are antithetical to that goal.
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Old 08-13-2005, 11:20 AM   #14
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not to be petty...but NDSU and UND are two different schools, folks.

UND: Fighting Sioux

NDSU: Bison

it is like confusing UCLA and USC.
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Old 08-14-2005, 04:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


I'll remember to refer to them as the "Bengalis" if I ever need to mention them to you (which is probably not too likely). And I'll write a letter to the Bengalis requesting that they play more awful Bhangra music over the PA during games (different region, but whatever).
Relax, bud. I was just joking. (Although I'm impressed with your knowledge of Indian things)
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