Meeanee, Napier, New Zealand Superthread

[Axver]

Mildura?

 

[cobl04]

Moe?

 

[Axver]

Shepp Daniel must be so, so heartbroken ... or not: Regional Festival Falls Over, No One Hears A Sound on Tone Deaf

 

[Reggo]

Eurgh, you can keep Tom Waits. Ew.

Wait, you like prog and jangle pop and experimental music and you like death metal growls, yet you don't like Tom Waits, who's the good parts of all of those plus a good dose of the blues? Does not compute.

 

[Axver]

I've always been amused that so many people who like Tom Waits are so rabidly anti-death growls.

I don't like him, none of his songs that I've heard appeal to me in any way, but I don't run around going "zomg that's not singing what shite!!!1!1" like people do with death growls.

 

[cobl04]

Probably because the music doesn't make me want to shove my head in an oven. His vocals on a track like Underground, for example, are pretty shit. But for some reason I don't mind the song. And on a lot of other tracks it is revealed he has a lovely singing voice/raspy speaking voice. Whereas to my knowledge, a death metal album features "death growls" from start to finish.

But I've only heard Closing Time and Swordfishtrombones.

 

[Slopsy]

Wait, you like prog and jangle pop and experimental music and you like death metal growls, yet you don't like Tom Waits, who's the good parts of all of those plus a good dose of the blues? Does not compute.

I find the music pretty boring, I don't like blues very much, and his singing voice sounds like deep, growly burps. I would never ever put that voice and good deathgrowls together in my head.

 

[Reggo]

Oh, oh Cobbler. You MUST hear more. Bad As Me is simply sublime. Classic Waits. I can upload you my copy if you want.

 

[cobl04]

Oh yeah I've heard that too. Just once.

good deathgrowls

Does not compute

 

[Reggo]

Oh yeah I've heard that too. Just once.

I have more albums and random songs I've collected that I can share if you like.

Does not compute

seconded.

 

[Axver]

Of course there's such a thing as good death growls. Mikael Akerfeldt is extremely coherent, for instance. Just see Opeth's song Bleak. He's more coherent than your average mumbly pussy indie vocalist there.

Or there's John Haughm in Agalloch's She Painted Fire Across The Skyline Part 1, which is at points no more offensive than whispering. Though that's actually the gutteral black metal rasping, rather than death metal's growls. Which would also explain why there's no chugging riffs.

Whereas to my knowledge, a death metal album features "death growls" from start to finish.

That's where you are very wrong, especially when it comes to progressive death metal. Like above, see Bleak.

 

[Slopsy]

Why do people think that there is only one kind of death growl? All people think of when someone mentions death growls is shitty bands with no imagination and monotonous growling the whole way through the song. Things that sound a lot like a dog barking into a microphone. Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmGcTp7nplU

There's not just one kind of clean singing - if you said that you'd be ridiculed. So why is it okay to generalise all death metal and the vocals that go with it? Harsh vocals in combination with clean ones sound amazing. While it's not strictly speaking death metal, Thy Catafalque's Fekete Mezők is an incredible example of this. I used to think that I hated harsh vocals, but that was kind of like saying "I hate wine" when the only wine you've ever had has come from a cask, because I had barely listened to any metal and was basing my judgement on mainstream crap.

 

[Reggo]

In support of Tom Waits, I will post this, then drop the debate. This is one of his most beautiful songs. He's still gravelly, but not growling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFjaCJ1pa4

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I liek musics.

 

[Alisaura]

It was a shock to discover that Bob Dylan actually has/had a decent voice, when he was willing to use it. Which, as far as I know, was on one song (Lay Lady Lay) and besides that he stuck with his trademark nasal whine.

Such was my experience after listening to "The Essential Bob Dylan", anyway.

And I too had a very generalised and unflattering opinion of metal music in general, and the vocals in particular, before I met Mr Axver over there. Now I've discovered the best metal doesn't have any vocals at all.

 

[LemonMelon]

Dylan had a very nice vocal period in the late 60s and early 70s. All of Nashville Skyline shows him in good vocal form, though the songwriting on that record isn't anything spectacular. Anyway, I don't pine for a great vocalist to sing Dylan's lyrics as I listen to his music; nobody could have delivered Like A Rolling Stone with the same degree of atonal, sarcastic ferocity that he did.

Now I've discovered the best metal doesn't have any vocals at all.

I've yet to find a metal album with mindblowing lyricism on the level of some of the other great songwriters we've discussed over the past couple of pages, but have certainly discovered lots of wonderful musical passages. Vocalists hurt metal bands far more often than they help them. Russian Circles never has nor ever will need a vocalist.

 

[Alisaura]

I've yet to find a metal album with mindblowing lyricism on the level of some of the other great songwriters we've discussed over the past couple of pages, but have certainly discovered lots of wonderful musical passages. Vocalists hurt metal bands far more often than they help them. Russian Circles never has nor ever will need a vocalist.

I should point out that I very much enjoy many songs with vocals in the metal genres, both clean and in various stages of growliness... but as Russian Circles is one of my favourite bands now, yeah. What did you think of the distorted vocal on Praise Be Man? It surprised me but I like it. It's murky enough to just be another instrument.

(It's also true that I am fairly oblivious to lyrics in general... it's the music that hooks me in, 99% of the time.)

 

[Alisaura]

And I must not forget to vote in the Hottest 100 before Monday night...

 

[LemonMelon]

Damn, Jesu's debut packs a wallop. Great album.

 

[Axver]

Honestly, I just think it's silly that metal fans have to defend the genre's musical worth so often from stereotypes of juvenile music for juvenile people or "lulz angry m00zic you grow out of". Especially when so much metal is in fact compositionally hyper-complex and requires a massive degree of proficiency to play. Proficiency doesn't equal good, but it at least it shows the people who play it aren't just dribbling blockheaded neanderthals. I don't care if people don't like it; I do care when people dismiss it as having no musical merit on the basis of hearing one Death song, the image of Cannibal Corpse, and meeting one smelly hairy guy in a Slayer t-shirt.

In support of Tom Waits, I will post this, then drop the debate. This is one of his most beautiful songs. He's still gravelly, but not growling.

I gave it a go, and that's just not a style of music I'm interested in. The music's fine and all, but I just find him a bit plodding and dull, kind of like listening to the sleazy chain smoker at the pub drone on. I avoid sleazy chain smokers at pubs.

What I was really getting at is simply that it surprises me how Tom Waits fans, of all people, can be so vehemently anti-metal. I don't expect them to like it (since the reverse obviously doesn't work, as in my case), but to at least understand why people might enjoy deep growled vocals. It's a rather similar aesthetic. I expect Celine Dion fans to rage against death growls, but not Tom Waits fans. Yet I see it all the time - not singling out anybody here, except perhaps Cobbler, whose mind seems resolutely closed when it comes to metal having any validity (which is very funny coming from a keen fan of an even more maligned genre, rap).

I've yet to find a metal album with mindblowing lyricism on the level of some of the other great songwriters we've discussed over the past couple of pages, but have certainly discovered lots of wonderful musical passages. Vocalists hurt metal bands far more often than they help them. Russian Circles never has nor ever will need a vocalist.

There are Agalloch and Anathema lyrics that, for me, wipe the floor with anything Bob Dylan or whoever has written. But that's because they resonate with me and mean something. Lyrics are painfully subjective like that.

Though I don't listen to metal for the lyrics ... or to much music for the lyrics, really. Bad lyrics alone can break a band, but good lyrics alone don't make one. If I want some good writing, I'll go and read one of my favourite authors.

And I must not forget to vote in the Hottest 100 before Monday night...

I voted so long ago that I've largely forgotten what I voted for.

Villages by Alpine is in contention though, don't forget that.

 

[Axver]

I'm guessing Cobbler's going to take up smoking these: Snoop Dogg Launches Cigar Brand on Tone Deaf

 

[LemonMelon]

"Tobacco"

 

[Axver]

Wow, five albums from my top fifteen made the B&C Albums of 2011 list. That must be a new record!

It was almost six too, but I relegated Cults to an honourable mention.

 

[cobl04]

I listened to Bleak. Absolutely hated it. Those vocals are just absolutely awful and the music is not to my taste either - though you'll be pleased to know that I have come some way and I no longer think metal is talentless. That was very naive and offensive (which I've come to undertand since people talk about hip-hop being the same). The guitar is pretty good in parts. But I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can possible derive any sort of enjoyment from death growls. Even the vocals at about 3:30 (is that the same guy as the one doing the death growls?), while much more digestible, don't appeal to me in the slightest.

I will freely admit though that my mind is pretty closed to metal.

 

[Axver]

The lengthy clean vocal section from 3:25 to 8:25 is Mikael Akerfeldt (who, yes, does the death growls) harmonising with Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree, who produced the album. Akerfeldt alternates between clean and growled vocals on many Opeth songs.

As for death growls, I could ask how the hell you or anybody derives enjoyment from this or that, but that would be stupid. The answer's obvious: because your tastes are different to mine. It's not a commentary on the technique being meritless, it's just a commentary on personal preference.

I challenge anybody to be bothered by John Haughm from 4:30 to 5:40 in this. He's practically whispering - and it shows you where the black metal rasp comes from, just when songs are heavier, it's done quicker and with greater amplification.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45RMOERVfkU

Fuck me I love this song. Plus the lead guitar is surprisingly easy to play! I often warm up by playing the intro.

I'm going to write some jangle pop with black metal vocals one day.

 

[Reggo]

Hrm. Green Day posted on Facebook, letting their fans design a t-shirt for them. No word on rules or prizes or anything. I'm tempted to enter, if only to refer back to when they were good.

EDIT: Oh, sneaky. You have to join greenday.com. Picked up some lousy habits from U2.com, did you?

 

[Axver]

EDIT: Oh, sneaky. You have to join greenday.com. Picked up some lousy habits from U2.com, did you?

In that case, I'd troll it by submitting the design of an actual U2 t-shirt.

 

[Reggo]

In that case, I'd troll it by submitting the design of an actual U2 t-shirt.

Ha! That would be hilarious...

I ganked image files of U2 shirts from U2.com ages ago for a photoshop project I never finished. Damn you for giving me ideas.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Just draw all three of the band members together on MS Pain.

 

[Reggo]

On the other hand, why should I pay them $20 for my t-shirt design, even if they do end up using it? By submitting it, I relinquish any rights to my intellectual property, whether they use the design or not, without compensation. Not really worth $20, thank you. Besides, I have spent more money than I care to admit on that band already.