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Old 01-26-2005, 07:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by PennyPyro
Ok, i got my tix from total tickets. i didn't know ANY of this stuff. I didn't know the presale wasnt even on until 10 am. I didn't know total tickets was a scalper---is it? because now i'm a little peeved, b/c now i'm hearing about how it could have been cheaper. jeez, my aunt and cousin have to shell out $305 too (it costs $15 to ship the tickets). theyr going with me
I guess i should have shopped around. or something. I dont know, heck i don't know ANYTHING about tickets, i've never bought tickets to U2 or any other big concert before.
And i don't even have to support myself financially yet (although i am paying for gas and lodging for the trip.) i suppose if i did i'd be furious.
I just didn't wanna wait too long. maybe the "We are NEVER sold out" slogan shoulda tipped me off. but i guess i'm pretty naive.
ok, that was my experience. i need to do my homework.
See, Elvis -- this is EXACTLY what I was afraid of. I know I've been coming off harsh, but I am really quite angry.

I'll try to shut my mouth now.
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Old 01-26-2005, 07:08 PM   #77
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Originally posted by Elvis


Fine by me.

I gave up the idealism (in relation to U2) long ago.
I guess I don't know how to really give up ...

Losing idealism should not mean switching to the "dark side".
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:07 PM   #78
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Originally posted by Mark Freedman


See, Elvis -- this is EXACTLY what I was afraid of. I know I've been coming off harsh, but I am really quite angry.

I'll try to shut my mouth now.

Mark, for weeks, or months even... we've been carrying U2.com's articles, and 'advertisements' within those articles for their memberships (and presale). These have also been included with each weekly mailer. We've not withheld this information from U2 fans, and indeed we've posted every bit of it. We can't possibly make sure that every person out there is educated and informed on how tickets work... let's face it, TicketMaster is not exactly a small company that no one has heard of. I appreciate the fact that your angry, but in comparison... when was the last time the IRS told you how to save as much money as possible on your tax return? My point, one can always find something to pick at, tear apart, and be angry with... however when it comes to one's personal choices, thats exactly what they are... personal choices.

I sometimes wonder while I'm typing this stuff to you... thinking about your site U2BloodRedSky, how you justify the distribution of masses of copyright material w/o official approval from the copyright holder or it's agency ... I mean, regardless of random quotes U2 has given over the years... it was/is still illegal, and I'm sure makes some people just as angry as you are now, or possibly even more so. Now in contrast, advertising a source of tickets, broker or not, is not illegal.

Now dont get me wrong, I loved BRS when it was at it's fullest, but the reality is that you're questioning the moral decisions I've made in running this site, while yours have been as equally as questionable just on the opposite end of the spectrum.
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:18 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Freedman


I guess I don't know how to really give up ...

Losing idealism should not mean switching to the "dark side".

Last time I checked it was this site that started as the underbelly of the U2 world, leaking unreleased singles, albums, and concerts.... eventually to have official endorsement and support from Interscope during 99-01, and selling ETS ticket 'packages' (much more than I've promoted TotalTickets)... oh, and let's not forget creating the already mentioned 'New Media'... I mean, come on Mark, Interference has been all over the board since day 1... and I've always been upfront about that.

And just as a side note... since we're on the topic... that time when I did do 'work' with Interscope, I was also the webmaster of the official 'u2propaganda.com'.... and that's the span of time where I lost my 'u2' idealism. I love the music, I love the image, of U2... but it's been some good few years since I got a taste of the 'dark side', and let me tell you Mark... I'm in the grey area. U2's a show, a business, Ireland's largest export.

The interesting thing, to me atleast, is things that I've known (about U2) for years are only now starting to be realized by the mainstream 'hardcore' fans. It will be interesting to see how many toes get stepped on before someone really decides to try to wrestle the giant.

and with that, I'll leave you with the site's original slogan:

"sometimes the real data is lost in the cross talk...
where the wire ends...
the interference begins..."
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:26 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis



Mark, for weeks, or months even... we've been carrying U2.com's articles, and 'advertisements' within those articles for their memberships (and presale). These have also been included with each weekly mailer. We've not withheld this information from U2 fans, and indeed we've posted every bit of it. We can't possibly make sure that every person out there is educated and informed on how tickets work... let's face it, TicketMaster is not exactly a small company that no one has heard of. I appreciate the fact that your angry, but in comparison... when was the last time the IRS told you how to save as much money as possible on your tax return? My point, one can always find something to pick at, tear apart, and be angry with... however when it comes to one's personal choices, thats exactly what they are... personal choices.

I sometimes wonder while I'm typing this stuff to you... thinking about your site U2BloodRedSky, how you justify the distribution of masses of copyright material w/o official approval from the copyright holder or it's agency ... I mean, regardless of random quotes U2 has given over the years... it was/is still illegal, and I'm sure makes some people just as angry as you are now, or possibly even more so. Now in contrast, advertising a source of tickets, broker or not, is not illegal.

Now dont get me wrong, I loved BRS when it was at it's fullest, but the reality is that you're questioning the moral decisions I've made in running this site, while yours have been as equally as questionable just on the opposite end of the spectrum.
1) It IS legal, especially in light of the recent court decision on bootlegs in NY. And if they ever change that law, or if U2 decides they want me to stop, I would take down my site immediately. AND I CLEARLY STATE ON MY SITE THAT NO MONEY EVER EXCHANGES HANDS WITH ME -- EVEN POSTAGE FOR TRADING. And it costs me between $140 and $270 a month to run ALL OUT OF MY OWN POCKET. They know about my site, and the site has also been mentioned in Ice Magazine, the Billboard site, and TechTV, and yet I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A CEASE & DESIST. My site is no secret, and yet I have never been threatened to close the site. Sure, it can happen any day, now, but not a peep in over four years???

2) You are comparing apples and oranges. You are involved in the taking advantage of (and money of) unwitting fans. Read that e-mail that you sent out the other day. Read it from the point of view of a fan. READ IT WITH AN OPEN MIND. It was VERY misleading.

I can go on and on, but it won't do any good.

I thank you for your forum and site, and all the great times it has given me, but I am seriously troubled about the many things that have originated from you over the past several months, and your very disturbing tunnel vision.
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:33 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis



Last time I checked it was this site that started as the underbelly of the U2 world, leaking unreleased singles, albums, and concerts.... eventually to have official endorsement and support from Interscope during 99-01, and selling ETS ticket 'packages' (much more than I've promoted TotalTickets)... oh, and let's not forget creating the already mentioned 'New Media'... I mean, come on Mark, Interference has been all over the board since day 1... and I've always been upfront about that.

And just as a side note... since we're on the topic... that time when I did do 'work' with Interscope, I was also the webmaster of the official 'u2propaganda.com'.... and that's the span of time where I lost my 'u2' idealism. I love the music, I love the image, of U2... but it's been some good few years since I got a taste of the 'dark side', and let me tell you Mark... I'm in the grey area. U2's a show, a business, Ireland's largest export.

The interesting thing, to me atleast, is things that I've known (about U2) for years are only now starting to be realized by the mainstream 'hardcore' fans. It will be interesting to see how many toes get stepped on before someone really decides to try to wrestle the giant.

and with that, I'll leave you with the site's original slogan:

"sometimes the real data is lost in the cross talk...
where the wire ends...
the interference begins..."
I guess I just draw my line at a different place than you draw yours. So be it.

Believe me, I know it's a big business, but you can still run a business morally. It's a cop-out to convince yourself otherwise. I ran a very moral and pretty successful business peaking at 25 employees for over a dozen years. It can be done.
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"My feeling is that it is cool for people to share our music -- as long as no one is making money from the process. We tell people who come to our concerts that they can tape the shows if they want. I think it is cool that people are so passionate about our music" -- Bono
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:33 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Freedman


1) It IS legal, especially in light of the recent court decision on bootlegs in NY. And if they ever change that law, or if U2 decides they want me to stop, I would take down my site immediately. AND I CLEARLY STATE ON MY SITE THAT NO MONEY EVER EXCHANGES HANDS WITH ME -- EVEN POSTAGE FOR TRADING. And it costs me between $140 and $270 a month to run ALL OUT OF MY OWN POCKET. They know about my site, and the site has also been mentioned in Ice Magazine, the Billboard site, and TechTV, and yet I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A CEASE & DESIST. My site is no secret, and yet I have never been threatened to close the site. Sure, it can happen any day, now, but not a peep in over four years???

2) You are comparing apples and oranges. You are involved in the taking advantage of (and money of) unwitting fans. Read that e-mail that you sent out the other day. Read it from the point of view of a fan. READ IT WITH AN OPEN MIND. It was VERY misleading.

I can go on and on, but it won't do any good.

I thank you for your forum and site, and all the great times it has given me, but I am seriously troubled about the many things that have originated from you over the past several months, and your very disturbing tunnel vision.
Stop writing. You've been called out. And you look desperate. I didn't like the email either, but your morally superior attitude blows.
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Old 01-26-2005, 08:37 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Freedman


1) It IS legal, especially in light of the recent court decision on bootlegs in NY. And if they ever change that law, or if U2 decides they want me to stop, I would take down my site immediately. AND I CLEARLY STATE ON MY SITE THAT NO MONEY EVER EXCHANGES HANDS WITH ME -- EVEN POSTAGE FOR TRADING. And it costs me between $140 and $270 a month to run ALL OUT OF MY OWN POCKET. They know about my site, and the site has also been mentioned in Ice Magazine, the Billboard site, and TechTV, and yet I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A CEASE & DESIST. My site is no secret, and yet I have never been threatened to close the site. Sure, it can happen any day, now, but not a peep in over four years???

2) You are comparing apples and oranges. You are involved in the taking advantage of (and money of) unwitting fans. Read that e-mail that you sent out the other day. Read it from the point of view of a fan. READ IT WITH AN OPEN MIND. It was VERY misleading.

I can go on and on, but it won't do any good.

I thank you for your forum and site, and all the great times it has given me, but I am seriously troubled about the many things that have originated from you over the past several months, and your very disturbing tunnel vision.

1) this site, and several others, got C&Ds in relation to tabs and lyrics...after nearly a decade of having them.... and the band knew about them. As soon as iTunes starts having live U2 shows, axes will start swinging. No C&D from them yet does not equal permission.

2) Taking advantage of fans? Come on Mark, I've lost tens of thousands over the yrs because of my love for this site, not to mention thousands and thousands of hours dedicated to it.

My tunnel vision, as you call it, is just quite different than what the typical idealistic fan is used to... and that's simply a result of my experiences both on the fan side, the 'dark side', and in the middle.
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Old 01-26-2005, 10:38 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by PennyPyro
Ok, i got my tix from total tickets. i didn't know ANY of this stuff. I didn't know the presale wasnt even on until 10 am. I didn't know total tickets was a scalper---is it? because now i'm a little peeved, b/c now i'm hearing about how it could have been cheaper. jeez, my aunt and cousin have to shell out $305 too (it costs $15 to ship the tickets). theyr going with me
I guess i should have shopped around. or something. I dont know, heck i don't know ANYTHING about tickets, i've never bought tickets to U2 or any other big concert before.
And i don't even have to support myself financially yet (although i am paying for gas and lodging for the trip.) i suppose if i did i'd be furious.
I just didn't wanna wait too long. maybe the "We are NEVER sold out" slogan shoulda tipped me off. but i guess i'm pretty naive.
ok, that was my experience. i need to do my homework.
Here is a perfect example of why the email solicitation sucked.

Yes there have always been scalpers and always will be. I can live with the link on this site. But this U2 community values not supporting people who profit from ripping people off. This is why we trade bootlegs rather than buy and sell. This is why fans trade tickets or sell them for face value. I'm not trying to take a moral high ground here and yet I am surprised and disappointed that this site supports ticket scalping. I do not judge fans who buy from scalpers. I did it once during ZooTV myself but frankly it was because there was no internet, no community like this to find other options. I just found the email inappropriate on this forum, and PennyPyro's experience really sums it up.
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Old 01-27-2005, 05:59 AM   #85
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Joel you really need to find those staffers you've been after.
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:52 AM   #86
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Originally posted by MrBrau1


Stop writing. You've been called out. And you look desperate. I didn't like the email either, but your morally superior attitude blows.
Stop reading.

I have not been called out -- my site is legal. And I am not ripping ANYONE off. And U2 is ok with me doing it as long as no money changes hands. Sure, their label may decide to make it difficult for me, and C&D me when (if) iTunes has recordings this tour. So be it. I'll pull it down if I have to. But I have never ripped anyone off.

Morally superior? Damn straight! Aren't you doing the same thing now?

I am not desperate at all. I only care that people here have been misled and ripped off.

I make no excuses for trying to differentiate the moral difference between my site and what this site has been doing.

Deal with this thread, or ignore it.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:00 AM   #87
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Originally posted by Elvis



1) this site, and several others, got C&Ds in relation to tabs and lyrics...after nearly a decade of having them.... and the band knew about them. As soon as iTunes starts having live U2 shows, axes will start swinging. No C&D from them yet does not equal permission.

2) Taking advantage of fans? Come on Mark, I've lost tens of thousands over the yrs because of my love for this site, not to mention thousands and thousands of hours dedicated to it.

My tunnel vision, as you call it, is just quite different than what the typical idealistic fan is used to... and that's simply a result of my experiences both on the fan side, the 'dark side', and in the middle.
1) They were told about my site, given my site's "business cards", asked what they thought of what I was doing, and Bono said he was fine with it as long as no money is involved. He then used his old line about "I know where to find his car if he does [involve money]." So, yes, I did get verbal permission. But like I said, I have no problem removing the sharing from my site if they want to start causing me trouble. It's not worth it. I only started it because they were ok with it.

2) Actually, I really don't believe you intended to. I don't believe you looked at it like that. But now that you've been called out on it, you are trying to defend it, and you aren't looking very good at defending it.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:41 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Freedman


1) They were told about my site, given my site's "business cards", asked what they thought of what I was doing, and Bono said he was fine with it as long as no money is involved. He then used his old line about "I know where to find his car if he does [involve money]." So, yes, I did get verbal permission. But like I said, I have no problem removing the sharing from my site if they want to start causing me trouble. It's not worth it. I only started it because they were ok with it.

2) Actually, I really don't believe you intended to. I don't believe you looked at it like that. But now that you've been called out on it, you are trying to defend it, and you aren't looking very good at defending it.
1) Yep... I've gotten 'verbal' permission (and plenty of praise) from the band, and the label, in the past. But I found out it's worthless coming from the band themselves. The band contracts/hires out others to get their hands dirty so they... would you expect them (the band) to try and upset fans face to face? My point wasnt to point fingers at you, but to bring to light some realities.... when you eventually do get that C&D, they will want logs, reports, statisitcs... and want you to figure out how much you owe them (the label) for copyright infringement. See... Universal Publishing has been hired by U2 to protect ALL of its copyrights, studio or not. I've had some interesting 'off the record' (and on the record) conversations with U.P., very enlightening to say the least.

2) Well, I'm glad you recognize I wasnt out to screw anyone over. As far as defending myself... that's a matter of opinion, and some here have strongly disagreed with your opinion as much as you've disagreed with my opinion, and my actions.
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:26 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis


1) Yep... I've gotten 'verbal' permission (and plenty of praise) from the band, and the label, in the past. But I found out it's worthless coming from the band themselves. The band contracts/hires out others to get their hands dirty so they... would you expect them (the band) to try and upset fans face to face? My point wasnt to point fingers at you, but to bring to light some realities.... when you eventually do get that C&D, they will want logs, reports, statisitcs... and want you to figure out how much you owe them (the label) for copyright infringement. See... Universal Publishing has been hired by U2 to protect ALL of its copyrights, studio or not. I've had some interesting 'off the record' (and on the record) conversations with U.P., very enlightening to say the least.

2) Well, I'm glad you recognize I wasnt out to screw anyone over. As far as defending myself... that's a matter of opinion, and some here have strongly disagreed with your opinion as much as you've disagreed with my opinion, and my actions.
So are you saying that I'm better off shutting the site down now, before they do a C&D? They actually wanted you to pay them? You actually had to pay them?
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:34 AM   #90
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Originally posted by Mark Freedman


So are you saying that I'm better off shutting the site down now, before they do a C&D? They actually wanted you to pay them? You actually had to pay them?

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not offering legal advice... but in my opinion, it would be best not to ever let a C&D see the light of day. There are loopholes in the copyright laws that can even allow these folks to prosecute for having links (or instructions) to such infringing material, on your site or not. Yes, they actually wanted me to pay for EVERY tab and lyrics we had, and.. as you know.. we had the most complete collection of both (and unfortunately 'they' knew that too). As far has having to pay... no, not yet... however, they can/could still pursue payment legally. I was VERY cooperative with them, but I really can't get into too much detail.

You'll also notice we've taken many extra steps to make sure its difficult to post links to audio and video files, as well as other potential violations.
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