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Old 01-10-2012, 10:17 AM   #571
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If Edgar (the greatest DH of all time) doesn't get in, Mariano Rivera (the greatest closer of all time) shouldn't either.

How many World Series titles has Edgar been highly instrumental in?
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:23 AM   #572
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If Edgar (the greatest DH of all time) doesn't get in, Mariano Rivera (the greatest closer of all time) shouldn't either.
now i've disagreed with a lot of things you've said here... but that one is one of the biggest, heaping piles of of crap i have ever heard... anywhere... from anyone.

and it's a shame, because you could have made a valid argument that edgar martinez is a hall of famer without ever mentioning mariano rivera. and i'd probably agree with you.

but saying that if edgar isn't, mariano isn't? yea. wow. no.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:44 AM   #573
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Guys who only play a part of the game, etc.

The reason Edgar is not in already is because he was a DH. DH's play more of the game than closers do.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:44 AM   #574
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How many World Series titles has Edgar been highly instrumental in?
So should no one who hasn't been to a world series be in consideration for being in the hall of fame?
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:46 AM   #575
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Imagine if the Mariners still had Edgar over the last 3 seasons, that one big bat....3 WS titles most likely.
I'll forgive this because I know you're old and old people generally are tired. And so it makes sense that you'd use such a tired, old baseball thread meme.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:49 AM   #576
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generally i don't think closers should be hall of famers, either. i make an exception with mariano... a dominating presence, both in the regular season, and most importantly, in the post season. he was one of the most feared pitchers of his or any era's, and his dominance transcends his position.

edgar martinez was an excellent hitter, and i do believe he should be considered for the hall of fame, and very well may be the greatest DH of all time. if he was an every day position player, he'd be a lock. gun to my head, he should get in.

he and mariano should never be mentioned in the same breath as far as their standing in the all time pantheon of the game.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:02 PM   #577
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So should no one who hasn't been to a world series be in consideration for being in the hall of fame?

Ok, to answer my own question. That would be FIVE!! FIVE baby! Too bad Edgar never was in one. I've got no problem with him being in the HOF, but your comparison is way off. Mo has been HIGHLY instrumental in those 5 World Series titles. One could easily argue that if Mo isn't on the team, they don't win all of those World Series.

And yes, it does help guys get over the hump as far as being inducted into the HOF. I'm sure it helped Barry Larkin. I'm sure I can name a few more, but I don't feel so inclined.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:03 PM   #578
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generally i don't think closers should be hall of famers, either. i make an exception with mariano... a dominating presence, both in the regular season, and most importantly, in the post season. he was one of the most feared pitchers of his or any era's, and his dominance transcends his position.

edgar martinez was an excellent hitter, and i do believe he should be considered for the hall of fame, and very well may be the greatest DH of all time. if he was an every day position player, he'd be a lock. gun to my head, he should get in.

he and mariano should never be mentioned in the same breath as far as their standing in the all time pantheon of the game.
Sure they should. They're each the greatest at a position that plays "half the game". They're both at a unique position that wasn't around thirty-five years ago. Mo is the best reliever of all time. Edgar is not only the best DH of all time, but one of the best hitters of all time. He doesn't have the counting stats because he was blocked for years and didn't become a starter until he was into his prime, agewise. Second best hitter using wRC from 1995-2001. Better in those years combined than anyone but Bonds. During Griffey's prime. During Bagwell's prime. During Manny's prime. During Thomas' prime. During A-Rod's breakout. Many etc.'s following.
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:11 PM   #579
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Just because they don't play the whole game does not mean DH and closer mean the same thing. It's an argument that only makes sense on the surface. Once you think about it for a little bit, it's pretty silly.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:06 PM   #580
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I'll forgive this because I know you're old and old people generally are tired. And so it makes sense that you'd use such a tired, old baseball thread meme.
Have you seen my Centrum Silver? I thought for sure I left it next to my bifocals.

Now as to your argument, as others have mentioned, comparing Martinez and Rivera is absurd, not even apples to oranges, more like apples to watermelons.

Martinez while maybe the best DH of all time (Check Ortiz' stats and post season accomplishments and you'll see Martinez will soon be remembered as the 2nd best ever), he's far from the greatest hitter ever...he was damn good, but .312, 309 HR, 1261 RBI are not all time great numbers...is he a hall of famer...probably, but by no means a first ballot type, he'll get in eventually....did he "dominate his era" as many of the writers like to say, in a word, "no". He had a very good career, the fact that he played DH makes no difference, his numbers are compared with other HOF hitters and they are good, but not mind blowing, they don't scream hall of fame like say Griffey, but upon close examination I think they'll be good enough to get him elected in a few years time.

As for Rivera, its not just that he's the best closer, he is the career leader all time in saves, is Edgar the all time leader in any meaningful stat? Where is he closest? Is it 45th on the doubles list? Trevor Hoffman is the only one near Rivera and he is still going...and yes the 5 WS rings do matter. Martinez never had 200 hits in a season, had 2,247 career hits, not close to the magical 3,000....he's not as great an all time hitter as you remember him. Again, I think he'll get in eventually, but he isn't a slam dunk candidate, all you need is the eyeball test for that...Rivera is a slam dunk candidate, sure first ballot HoF'er.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:22 PM   #581
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Bud Selig to be commishing for longer?
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:06 PM   #582
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Have you seen my Centrum Silver? I thought for sure I left it next to my bifocals.

Now as to your argument, as others have mentioned, comparing Martinez and Rivera is absurd, not even apples to oranges, more like apples to watermelons.

Martinez while maybe the best DH of all time (Check Ortiz' stats and post season accomplishments and you'll see Martinez will soon be remembered as the 2nd best ever), he's far from the greatest hitter ever...he was damn good, but .312, 309 HR, 1261 RBI are not all time great numbers...is he a hall of famer...probably, but by no means a first ballot type, he'll get in eventually....did he "dominate his era" as many of the writers like to say, in a word, "no". He had a very good career, the fact that he played DH makes no difference, his numbers are compared with other HOF hitters and they are good, but not mind blowing, they don't scream hall of fame like say Griffey, but upon close examination I think they'll be good enough to get him elected in a few years time.

As for Rivera, its not just that he's the best closer, he is the career leader all time in saves, is Edgar the all time leader in any meaningful stat? Where is he closest? Is it 45th on the doubles list? Trevor Hoffman is the only one near Rivera and he is still going...and yes the 5 WS rings do matter. Martinez never had 200 hits in a season, had 2,247 career hits, not close to the magical 3,000....he's not as great an all time hitter as you remember him. Again, I think he'll get in eventually, but he isn't a slam dunk candidate, all you need is the eyeball test for that...Rivera is a slam dunk candidate, sure first ballot HoF'er.
People have had a chance to put up a lot of offensive numbers over the years. How many years have saves been happening at a high rate? 30? How many more years have people had to put up career numbers in offensive categories when saves were pretty much nonexistent? Anyway, for the amount of time that Edgar spent in the major leagues, his stats are ridiculous. You know why he didn't get 200 hits in a season? He was too busy walking over 100 times.

Anyway, wRC says he was the 2nd best hitter for a seven year period. So what that he doesn't have the counting stats and wasn't on a world series team? He was second only to a known roider. When is the last RHH that put up an average over 7 years of .330/.450/.570?

Anyway, 70 WAR. More than Gwynn, Alomar, Manny, Hank Greenberg, Mike Piazza, Cash, Lofton, double that of David Ortiz (so that's pretty laughable). And without the added amount for the defensive contribution of those guys. Manny's might've been higher without defense, but only due to longevity. oWAR/PA would say something different.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:10 PM   #583
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Just because they don't play the whole game does not mean DH and closer mean the same thing. It's an argument that only makes sense on the surface. Once you think about it for a little bit, it's pretty silly.
You're right - a DH does more. Because they play every game. And a closer pitches one inning maybe once every 2.5 games or so.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:54 AM   #584
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Anyway, wRC says he was the 2nd best hitter for a seven year period. So what that he doesn't have the counting stats and wasn't on a world series team? He was second only to a known roider. When is the last RHH that put up an average over 7 years of .330/.450/.570?

.
Unfortunately for you and Edgar, the "counting stats" are a big part of what decides who gets into the HoF. You mention hime being "Blocked" for years and not becoming a starter till he was in his priem...so are we to assume that, hey this guy would have hit another 200 HR's if he had been starting since he was 19, or are we to judge him on what he did? HoF is for a great career body of work...certainly nobody thinks Brady Anderson should be in for his one outstanding roid induced season (extreme example obviously but just to illustrate a point)...or should they vote Tony Conigliaro in assuming had he not been beaned he'd have ht 500 HR?...Edgar is borderline largely because he didn't play long enough (regardless of the reasons) to accumulate "counting stats" that open people's eyes...had he hit 400HR and driven in 1500, along with his .312 avg he's likely already in with everything else...but since he didn't it's gonna take a little longer for him...he has no shot in the next few years as some of the huger names (some obvious roid rangers [Bonds/Clemens/Sosa], some never proven cause he had a nice smile but his career arc and injury history screams of it[Griffey]) of this generation of players become eleigible...Edgar will be overlooked for sure the next 3 years..after that I think his numbers will slowly climb and he'll end up like Jim Rice and get in in his 14th or 15th year of eligibility. Again as I said before, he's not a slam dunk just by the eyeball test, regardless of the DH issue. Writers who hold his position against him should have their voting privelege revoked, but I don't think he'd be in yet if he played 3B his whole career and had the numbers he has (unless he was the 2nd coming of Brooks Robinson defensively).


And as for your argument that saves have only been a prominent stat for 30 years and hitting being around for over 100 validating Edgar vs. Mariano...well what stat did Edgar lead all of baseball for the last 30 yrs then?
Doesn't hold up...Rivera is the best closer this game has ever seen, and based on how fleeting most closers' careers are, I doubt that we'll see anyone better in our lifetimes (yours being so much longer than mine cause remember I'm old).
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:52 AM   #585
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there are two specific questions here...

1) is edgar martinez, the cat's meow of every mariner fan boy's dreams apparently, a hall of famer?

most of us would say, eventually, yea.

2) should edgar martinez's name ever be brought up in the same breath as mariano rivera's when it comes to all time status?

most living human beings would say absolutely not, you'd have to be bat shit crazy to even suggest such a thing.

we've all suggested bat shit crazy things before. when that bat shit crazy idea is met with universal "you're bat shit crazy" responses, it's normally best to stop... think for a second, and say "hmm... maybe that line of thought isn't correct" or at the very least "well... i still think they're wrong, but it's 1 vs 99, so i'm just gonna drop it"
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