Legalism?

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martha

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When Christians talk about legalism, what are they talking about?


Please keep it simple.
smile.gif


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They say that magic and the science world collide
Oh, but Einstein saw me lookin' at her and he joined my side

Jonathan Richman
"A Higher Power"
 
I always think of legalism as following exactly what the Bible says...no questions asked, no exceptions to the rule. Those who don't follow the exact instructions in the Bible will go to hell...to me it's not a good thing.
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Someone please correct me if I'm way off target here.

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BONO: FOAD, Lawrence. Just FOAD. (LOL, Mona)

You can dream, so dream out loud!

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!
 
Originally posted by martha:
When Christians talk about legalism, what are they talking about?
Please keep it simple.
smile.gif

Legalism is the belief that by doing certain things and acting in certain ways, portraying certain characteristics or behavior modes, it will "earn" you favor with God.
Grace is the EXACT opposite. It is that salvation and favor with God is not earned - it is given freely, as a result of Christ's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection. Grace tells us that we cannot meet God's standards of our own power - if we are to be accepted by God, it is only as a result of us accepting his free gift offered in the person of Jesus Christ.
Some people are legalistic toward others. They expect everyone to live up to God's standards, and will be there to harshly judge them if they don't.
Some people are legalistic toward themselves. That was me until 1992. I lived a miserable Christian experience before that, in which everytime I missed God's holy standards, I would feel extreme guilty and try and try harder, and next time I just might be victorious in my fight against temptation. But then the next time, I would lose again. This was a roller coaster emotional life. In 92, I realized that i can't meet God's standards in my own power; that the only way I could really overcome temptations is to let God live through me - afetr all, His Holy Spirit does live in all Christians.
And that's what God wants. He wants us to rely on him to be victorious through us. he doesn't want to see us trapped in a "success then failure then success then failure" rut because our own power won't cut it. he wants us to "let go and let God".
Some people think that the answer to legalism is to just let Christians revel in their sins, because of grace. But that's not true. The Bible says that we should not "sin even more so that grace may abound". However, there is a fine line between honest concern that a fellow believer is not letting God take control of a certain sin and judging the person for that sin. Unfortunately, too often Christians are on teh wrong side of that line.
Thanks.


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 01-15-2002).]
 
So, legalism means that you must follow the letter of the law of God, or you have failed. It seems, then, not to take into account that people are human.

Do I understand you correctly, or am I oversimplifying?

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They say that magic and the science world collide
Oh, but Einstein saw me lookin' at her and he joined my side

Jonathan Richman
"A Higher Power"
 
Legalism in its most simple form is "religion". It is the idea that following a prescribed set of rules will gain you spiritual favor.
 
Originally posted by martha:
So, legalism means that you must follow the letter of the law of God, or you have failed. It seems, then, not to take into account that people are human.
Do I understand you correctly, or am I oversimplifying?
I would think that's pretty much it. God does want us to be holy, and he's given us his Spirit to empower us to resist temptation, but we can't do it without him, and it is not our good deeds that provide us with his favor.



[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 01-15-2002).]
 
In the 80s, I had friends who would not dance, women who would not wear make up or wear pants, men and women could not wear jewlery. They said in the Bible it advised against these things so they were doing exaclty as they believed it said.

We considered that legalistic.

The ironic thing is today hardly any of those people (or myself for that matter) are strongly practicing Christians today...
 
martha, when I was a 'new born' believer, someone explained it to me this way, which is about as simple as I can make it:

Religion/legalism is that which is 'born of man' in his desperate attempt to perfect his own life in some manner in order to reach God across the 'gulf' that separates God and man.

GRACE, on the other hand, is the FREE GIFT given to us by God. We need only to ask for it, receive it, and accept it.

It's a gift and an explanation so profound in its simplicity, that many people and many religions fail to grasp the concept entirely...

Christ himself railed against the legalism of the Pharisees. Basically legalism is anything above/beyond or over what the Bible lays out for us, including but not limited to such things as "tradition," alms (which is *not* the same as tithing); dressing in a certain way (i.e., no pants for women); no jewelry or makeup; dietary restrictions; not cutting hair or beards; acting a certain way; not being allowed to dance; abstaining from medical assistance due to "religious beliefs;" and many other issues too numerous to mention!

[This message has been edited by Discoteque (edited 01-15-2002).]
 
Originally posted by U2LA:
The ironic thing is today hardly any of those people (or myself for that matter) are strongly practicing Christians today...


But do they still have "soul"? I tend to believe it's one's spirituality that remains when they give up on "religion". I guess in my case that Spirit remains my faith, whether or not I practice my religion.

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If your glass house should crack....POE
 
Ok, thanks everyone. That term was unfamiliar to me, and it was brought up here and a couple of times in the Walk On book (which I finally got and have started to read and will discuss later). I think I understand what you all are talking about.

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They say that magic and the science world collide
Oh, but Einstein saw me lookin' at her and he joined my side

Jonathan Richman
"A Higher Power"
 
Originally posted by drumkeeran:
But do they still have "soul"? I tend to believe it's one's spirituality that remains when they give up on "religion". I guess in my case that Spirit remains my faith, whether or not I practice my religion.


Yes, soul and the unconditional love, those are engraved in the heart.
 
I think that, regarding 80s' answer, you must take into account that he is a fundamentalist Christian, and, thus, the answer you will receive will be different from someone who has a more liberal Christian belief system--like myself. Not condemning what he wrote, FYI.

With that disclaimer, hear me out. Legalism, to me, is the same as essentialism, the belief that God has set out monolithic laws that must be followed to the letter that cannot be broken under any circumstance, regardless of good or bad intentions.

As a personalist (morality is determined on personal conscience and intention) and as someone who has studied the Bible, I do not believe God is an essentialist. If that was true, when Jesus was sent to Earth, He should have upheld every last thing the Pharisees prescribed. But He didn't, and St. Paul makes a very good and succinct line on "law":

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." -- Romans 13:8-10.

Essentially, legalism is anything contrary to the passage above, to me. And, with a well-formulated conscience, one should have no problem "keeping the faith." Hopefully, this makes some sense...lol.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
Originally posted by DebbieSG:
Hey melon, it's nice to see you in these parts and I dare you to find another bible verse.

Okay...I must admit that it is quite funny how I regurgitate that same verse over and over, but it is because it is my favorite in the New Testament and it just makes more explicit the importance of "Love one another."

Basically, if one acts in love, then, regardless of what the Mosaic Law states, what the Ten Commandments state, what St. Paul states, what the Catholic Church states, what the Christian Coalition states, etc., then you are acting morally. Likewise, I believe that one isn't acting in love, then, regardless of what all those institutions/books above state, then you aren't acting morally.

The challenge is to formulate a conscience that can emulate such an attitude, in my opinion. It doesn't mean that "anything goes." On the contrary, it forces you to analyze what you believe and why you do things. How often do you see those who just do what they're told act like real bastards?

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Some people are legalistic toward others. They expect everyone to live up to God's standards, and will be there to harshly judge them if they don't.

These people are commonly called Puritans.
tongue.gif
. Definately my least favorite types of Christians (i.e Mr. Fallwell, Mr. Buchanan).

Ummm...I'm pretty against legalism. Well, I AM against legalism. Frankly it scares me to death. God gave us free will for a reason. That and a lot of people insert things in the Bible that just aren't there (or maybe they are, but you REALLY have to read between the lines to see it). In example homosexuals. Nothing wrong there, but extremely fundamental Christians have something against them. There's a good example of backward legalism too. Where the afrementioned Christians will live what they think is a perfect life of a Christian, but then they condemn homosexuals.


Many use their Christianity to promote their crazy conservative ideas as well. In example Pat Buchanan shouting about how America should deport all of its immigrants in the wake of 9/11. Well HELLLOOOOO!!! We are ALL immigrants here!!! Only the Native Americans would be left, and even then they'd have to go back to Alaska and eventually Asia and eventually the Middle East, and finally Africa, as that's where we all came from. That's the other type of Christian I find it hard to tolerate. But I do, because that's his belief. It belongs to him and there is nothing I can do to change it. Sorry...this is going into a new thread...

P.S the use of "type" was not in any way meant to be derrogative or demeaning, it was just the best word I could think of. Sorry if it was offensive at all.

-Lil

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It's the puppets that pull the strings.
 
Oh Lilly, you've opened the Pandora's Box.

All I want to say regarding homosexuals and the Bible is that they aren't the same concepts that we have today. First of all, the term "homosexual" is an incorrect term to use at all in the Bible, considering it was a term coined in 1874 in Germany. Before that, homosexual activity was believed to be carried out by rebellious or depraved heterosexuals.

Regardless, in terms of Sodom and Gomorrah, the sin is not homosexuality. The sin is inhospitality and, assuming that a homosexual act was done against the men (which is up for debate), it was the device to humiliate. The "sin" was not the homosexual act; it was the act of hostility towards Lot's guests. The hostility could have been done in any sort of ways, and inhospitality towards strangers was a grave sin back then. Look at the city of Gibeah in Judges, for instance. It is a mirror of Sodom and Gomorrah up to the part where the men demand to "know" the other men in the house. The protagonist (I forget his name) objects and offers a female concubine in their place. The men accept the concubine, they violently gang rape her, and rip her to shreds. God then commands an army to destroy Gibeah. Are we know to believe that, due to the sin of Gibeah, that now all heterosexual acts are henceforth sinful?

The other obvious mentions of homosexuality are in context of idol worship, as group sex in the temples of their gods were very common (it was believed that if they had sex, it brought them closer to the gods). Knowing this, it is no wonder the Biblical writers saw homosexual activity as evil.

But we should know differently. Homosexual activity, in the present, is not done in context of humiliating people we don't like or to worship strange gods. Quite often it is done in love, and should be put at the same level as heterosexual relationships. Just as much as heterosexual activity can be abused (all you have to do is watch "Jerry Springer" for evidence of that), homosexual activity can be abused. But homosexual acts done in context of "love," in context of Romans 13, should not be declared sinful. "Love does no evil to the neighbor." In contrast, I would say that homophobia is really the true violation of the spirit of Sodom and Gomorrah, not to mention Romans 13. Is that not inhospitality to our neighbors?

Oh the Pandora's Box. Overall, though, you should listen to your conscience in dealing with any moral matters. If you believe it to be wrong, then, by all means, don't practice it. However, if you are straight, I have a feeling you won't be having a same-sex relationship anytime soon.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
Okay so I'm looking around today and I come across this great essay about Legalism that I think takes care of a lot of questions...

I won't post the whole thing here cause it's rather long but here's the link if anyone's interested...
http://64.226.87.51/topics/legalism.html

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And love is not the easy thing...the only baggage you can bring is all that you can't leave behind.

BONO: FOAD, Lawrence. Just FOAD. (LOL, Mona)

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!
 
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