Here's a strange pickle to chew on

[FitzChivalry]

What do you do when you've been friends with people for over half your life; they're some of your best friends on the planet; you've been there for all of each others' milestones: birthdays, graduations, weddings, anniversaries, childbirth, etc.; you used to spend tons of time together, hanging out, having fun, but . . .

. . . lately you've come to the realization that their child is bratty, and that bratty behavior is keeping you from spending time with your friends or wanting to go over their house and bear witness to the disrespect and brattiness that is mostly likely to ensue. I'm not saying the child is a monster or demon or evil or anything. A good portion of the time he can be fun, loving, caring, and is a very smart boy. But my friends are not, and have never been, very strict or disciplinary with him. And the result is that now he is very smartass, disrespectful and whines until he gets his way . . . which he almost always does because with my friends No doesn't really mean No; No just means Until You Wear Us Down And Get Your Way.

Now, I'm single with no children. So I really have no idea how hard it is to be a parent and the amount of energy it requires. And I know that all children go through their rebellious periods and sarcastic phases. But to me this seems to stem more from the fact that his discipline his whole life has been very lax. The last time I was over, I could not believe how he back-talked to his parents (my friends), and he's only six.

And it saddens me because when he was a baby, infant and toddler, he and I were SO CLOSE! He was my favorite person on the planet for the first 3 or 4 years. And now, I find myself not wanting to be close to him because I don't want to have to see how bratty he becomes and gets away with it. His behavior really gets under my skin, but I can't say anything because I know it would hurt my friends' feelings and probably be something that would divide us even further. Especially since his Dad thinks he's the most perfect thing in this world and constantly tells him how perfect he is. I think my friend would be deeply offended and hurt if he knew what I really think of how his son is turning out.

I've just been thinking a lot about this these past few weeks and not really sure what to do about it.

Any suggestions? Especially suggestions from parents, because I know it's pretty much the ultimate taboo to tell a parent how to raise their child or what you think they're doing wrong.

 

[cobl04]

no advice from me, that's a shitty situation, but i'll watch with interest because my younger sister's behaviour is exactly the same as

And the result is that now he is very smartass, disrespectful and whines until he gets his way . . . which he almost always does because with my friends No doesn't really mean No; No just means Until You Wear Us Down And Get Your Way.

and i'm almost at breaking point. i get really fucking angry that she just whinges and complains all the time. she's 11, as well, and starting high school next year.

anyway, not my thread

 

[Galeongirl]

It's a shitty situation. Parents are very touchy when it comes to their kids, and if you tell them that they might not be raising them the right way, you're in danger of getting in a fight with them.

But in this case, if you've been friends for that long, perhaps you do need to wake them up. Don't do it bluntly, just talk to them together or one of them alone, and tell them how you feel, that the kid can be really spoiled and that if they continue to raise it like this it'll be a spoiled brat that nobody really likes. That it's better for the kid if they show some disciplin, just a bit is better than none at all.

You seem like a really nice and sensitive guy Fitz, so if you bring it to them the way you post here, if they're good people they'll understand. They won't like it, but at least they could use it to improve. It's better for the kid in the end too.

 

[vjacqb]

I'm not a parent either, Ethan, so read this with a grain of salt.
I had the same experience with my nephews. They would throw temper tantrums and whine until my sister caved and I rolled my eyes or bit my tongue. I only get to see them maybe once a year, for a week or two, since we live in different countries. So when I'm with them I actually want to spend time with them. After talking to my sister and finding out that they just have a different philosophy about disciplining their kids, I realized that I can't change the parents. You shouldn't expect to do the same either, especially since it seems like your friends don't see anything wrong with the way they're handling the kid's behavior.

Parents are fiercely protective of their kids, and rightly so. One thing that my friend told me once that has stayed with me is that most of the times a parent knows that their child is naughty, or whiny or acting up, and they sometimes even admit it, but you can never, ever, say anything bad about the kid to their face. Because their first reaction is to protect the kid. And I experienced this with my sister. Once she admitted to me that her son was the only one running around and not keeping still during a field trip and that she couldn't understand how the other kids could behave, I jumped at the chance and asked her if she got tired of the behavior. She admitted it. That kind of opened up the communication channel between us, and I was able to talk to her about how some of the boys' behavior annoy me but they're not little devils or anything. So she left it up to me. I can't change how the parents discipline the kids, but I can try to make the kids behave the way I want them to when I'm around them because I want to enjoy my time with them. In my case (and I think with most kids) it's easier to teach the kids than to change how the parents handle the kids.

The difference here is I want to be able to spend time with my nephews, while you probably mostly want to hang with your buddy, which means you have to tolerate the kid (I may be wrong here, you may have the desire to spend time with the little tyke too). So if you want to invest time in building a relationship with the boy, the key is to bring him (and your friends) to your own turf. It's hard to say "I don't want you doing this" or "You shouldn't touch this" when you're at your friend's house. Bring them over to your house, and lay down the rules. I think this is actually easier if you spend time with the kid yourself first. Ask to babysit him (yikes!) for a few hours at your place, while your friends go to dinner or something. Talk to the kid the first thing he gets there, when he's still calm, what kind of behavior you expect from him. And tell him what "punishment" he can expect if he doesn't behave (eg. time-outs, no desserts, no video games, etc). And if he behaves well, reward him with extra desserts or 5 minutes extra video game time. The key is stick to it. If he doesn't behave, give the time-out, if he behaves, give him the reward.

You can even try to bring him to a ball game or something. If he behaves, get him a cool souvenir, or ask him what he wants for lunch/dinner and go to the place he suggested. And praise him and let him know what he did that was considered good behavior.

Once you have a good rapport with the kid and he's used to your rules, he'll know how to behave around you. Now everytime you get together you can tell him you expect the same behavior, even when you're his guest. Sure, he'll still act up when his parents are there, but I think you'll be more comfortable saying something to him if it bothers you. You have to get the vibe from the parents too, though. Some people will get defensive if you say something to their kid in front of them. Some people, like my sister, actually want somebody else to step in, because kids are inherently more likely to act up to their parents, but not other adults. But you can always pull the kid to the side and talk to him separately.

So the kid will slip from time to time, because he's only a kid. You just have to be consistent and remind him of the rules, and always give him time to correct the behavior before laying down the punishment. And one secret: they listen better before they're already in the middle of tantrums and whining... So hopefully you'll get to hang with your friend more often too as the side benefit of this...

If this is too much work since you only want to hang around your buddy, just invite him over for guy's night-out then, no kid allowed...

 

[dsmith2904]

This is such a sucky situation because I know how much you love and adore your friends and their son. You don't want to criticize the parents and cause a rift so can't say anything about the way he treats them, but I think everyone has the right to protect themselves so if he is yelling at you or hitting you or being generally disrespectful and hateful to you, I believe you do have a right to tell him and the parents that that's not acceptable.

I hope this works out for you

 

[Sicy]

I'm so scared that my 4 year old nephew is going to end up like that Ethan. He's so sweet and well mannered right now but I think a lot of it has to do with once they start going to school and stuff, they learn and pick up things there that arent always acceptable and it can change them. However it is definitely up to the parents to keep on the discipline. Can you say something maybe like in a half joking manner, that might get the point across without sounding like you're telling them what to do?

 

[FitzChivalry]

Well, I think something VGACQB said is really true here:

One thing that my friend told me once that has stayed with me is that most of the times a parent knows that their child is naughty, or whiny or acting up, and they sometimes even admit it, but you can never, ever, say anything bad about the kid to their face.

My best friend knows her son can be a total brat, but her and her husband made a conscious decision to be more lenient than the strict and aggressive households they themselves grew up in. But I think they've gone too far the other way, gone way too lenient and lax on the discipline. In fact, on Facebook the other day, my best friend was complaining about how she's at her wit's end because he was being so sarcastic and bratty.

So this is more than just stuff he's picked up at school. It's choices my friends have made in the way they decided to raise him. For example: In my opinion, they allowed him to play video games at waaaaaaaaaaay too young an age and waaaaaaaaaaay too often. So now, that's ALL he wants to do. If he's not playing Wii or Ninetendo DS or some other video game, he is not happy and he will whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine until they just give up and let him play the damn game he wants to play. IT DRIVES ME INSANE!

So she knows how her son is. And my other friend might know as well, he just doesn't want to believe it's as bad as it is, and wants to believe his son is the most perfect thing ever and that the earth, moon and sun revolve around his son.

What they don't know is how I feel about it, and how it's putting distance between us.

I love hanging out with my friends one-on-one. But with family obligations, that seems to happen less and less. So my choices become hang out with them at their house and bear witness to the bratty behavior, or just don't go over at all and mostly talk to my best friend via text or phone calls.

. . . but I think everyone has the right to protect themselves so if he is yelling at you or hitting you or being generally disrespectful and hateful to you, I believe you do have a right to tell him and the parents that that's not acceptable.

I'm pretty good about this, Dev. I don't let him get away with talking back to, or hitting, me. And when I babysit him when my friends have a "date night", I'm kind, but firm with him. I don't let him get away with the things he gets away with his parents. And we usually end up having a really great time on those occasions when I babysit him and my friends are having their alone time out. It's when we're all together that I feel uncomfortable and just don't want to be there.

 

[zuropa_fit]

Okay -
a) do NOT, under any circumstances, tell your friends how to raise/discipline their kids. Believe me on this. Since I'm the first person with kids to respond, I call dibs.

b) I don't like other people's kids Well, some, but not many. So that means, when I want to have fun, I plan a grown up outing. But it needs to be planned in enough time for your friends to make plans for a sitter. Don't expect them to be able to meet you for dinner, sans child, in, like 30 minutes.

c) Kids act differently around different people. And they learn very quickly that different people have different expectations and to adjust their behavior. If you have been close to all three (parents and child) since he's been born, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that you ask him to behave in an appropriate manner and tell him when he's out of line. My nephew gets away with murder with his mom, but not with me. He knows that my expectations are different and when I say "don't bounce on the couch" I mean it and will pick him up and put him in a time out chair if he doesn't stop.

Good luck!

 

[zuropa_fit]

Oh and by the way, not at ALL what I thought this thread was going to be about. just sayin'

 

[cobl04]

i think it's funny how *most* kids will become quite reserved and behave immediately when told something by someone who is not a parent.

i also don't enjoy chewing on pickles.

 

[Purplereign]

Okay -
a) do NOT, under any circumstances, tell your friends how to raise/discipline their kids. Believe me on this. Since I'm the first person with kids to respond, I call dibs.

b) I don't like other people's kids Well, some, but not many. So that means, when I want to have fun, I plan a grown up outing. But it needs to be planned in enough time for your friends to make plans for a sitter. Don't expect them to be able to meet you for dinner, sans child, in, like 30 minutes.

c) Kids act differently around different people. And they learn very quickly that different people have different expectations and to adjust their behavior. If you have been close to all three (parents and child) since he's been born, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that you ask him to behave in an appropriate manner and tell him when he's out of line. My nephew gets away with murder with his mom, but not with me. He knows that my expectations are different and when I say "don't bounce on the couch" I mean it and will pick him up and put him in a time out chair if he doesn't stop.

Good luck!

from another parent . . .this

she is a wise wise woman

btw . . . the thread title . . . made me snort

 

[dsmith2904]

Oh and by the way, not at ALL what I thought this thread was going to be about. just sayin'

... but mostly Adam.

 

[zuropa_fit]

^

 

[Liesje]

My cousins are brats too, which is odd since my aunt is one of the kindest, most compassionate people I know and is not at all materialistic. But my uncle is very impatient and materialistic. I think what happens is she gets tired doing all of the work with the kids, the home, plus she does work (she teaches 4th grade), so when the kids whine she just caves b/c she doesn't have the energy to deal with it. My uncle is no help, he just buys them whatever they want to shut them up. Basically the kids are being setup for failure (they are both in highschool now) because they have no coping skills, no common sense, no concept of working hard to earn something. The younger one is turning out OK but to be honest I think that she's lucky because she is very thin and beautiful so she is popular even though she's a brat. My older cousin did not luck out genetically (both these kids are adopted) so I'm betting he has a much harder time socially, plus he is ADHD so already he is smarter than everyone his age and has no patience.

Okay -
a) do NOT, under any circumstances, tell your friends how to raise/discipline their kids. Believe me on this. Since I'm the first person with kids to respond, I call dibs.

b) I don't like other people's kids Well, some, but not many. So that means, when I want to have fun, I plan a grown up outing. But it needs to be planned in enough time for your friends to make plans for a sitter. Don't expect them to be able to meet you for dinner, sans child, in, like 30 minutes.

c) Kids act differently around different people. And they learn very quickly that different people have different expectations and to adjust their behavior. If you have been close to all three (parents and child) since he's been born, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that you ask him to behave in an appropriate manner and tell him when he's out of line. My nephew gets away with murder with his mom, but not with me. He knows that my expectations are different and when I say "don't bounce on the couch" I mean it and will pick him up and put him in a time out chair if he doesn't stop.

I agree with not telling someone else how to raise their kids. I still love my aunt and cousins even though they are brats. She can raise them, baby them, and spoil them as she sees fit. If they whine to me about something they are shit outta luck and I will give an honest answer or tell them to bugger off until they can grow up.

 

[BluRmGrl]

Kelly & I have a similar situation with our immediate next-door neighbors, M. & K. Great people, a great couple. And then they brought forth The Child. As in: The child nobody else wants to be around because he's such a annoying, obnoxious prat. The child who is in absolute control of the only two adults who live in his home. The child who bullies the other neighbor's boys, then lies about what he's done when he gets called out by their mom or any other adult but his parents. The child who may very well be the beginning of the end for his parent's marriage. (Which I totally realize is not C.'s fault, but a product of the arguing that C.'s behavior has caused.)

The other thing is while I fully expected & understood that our social interaction with M. & K. would be lessened when they had C., I didn't know they'd essentially withdraw themselves from everyone in our neighborhood group. I think the worst is that (and I've heard this from other people on our street) M. & K. now associate exclusively with other friends who also have children - which makes perfect sense! - except that apparently these friends are a higher social class than the rest of us and therefore, more deserving of M. & K.'s presence.

It's strange, because it as if everything that M. & K. are about in their own lives - discipline, fitness, responsibility, courtesy - are the precise things that they've completely obliterated in their son's. He's a very chunky, unfit 5yr old who's mentally about a 4yr old and emotionally about a 3yr old.

I'd love to hear from someone else who's been in a similar situation to compare notes.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Wow, I too didn't know what this thread would be about from the title. Anyway, I've been where Fitz was at except it was my cousin's family. At the time, it was my cousin, his wife and their young son who is my godson. Anyway, I would visit them once a week every Monday Night to watch WWF wrestling with his dad. The show went on at 9, but I'd stop by a few hours before, so I could hang out with my godson and have dinner with the family. Now, from the ages of 1-3, his behavior was ok. But, from like the ages of 3-6, the kid was a real pain in the ass. After a few years, I got sick of going over there and stopped my visits all together. Than they moved away, so I don't see them at all. I know, not the greatest story, but I guess the point is that everyone's got their boiling points, whether it be months, years or decades.

Now, I don't have any kids of my own, but I'm generally pretty good with them. If a kid's parent is not around, I've got no problem making sure that they're not getting into trouble. If a kid's parent is around, I keep my mouth shut and let them handle any problems.