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Old 05-01-2009, 06:56 PM   #16
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please excuse my use of Wikipedia.....

"In 2000, following a media uproar prompted by the visit of presidential candidate George W. Bush to the University, Bob Jones III abruptly dropped the interracial dating rule, announcing the change on CNN's Larry King Live. Five years later when asked for his view of the rule change, the current president, Stephen Jones, replied, 'I've never been more proud of my dad than the night he...lifted that policy.'"

"In November 2008, the University declared itself 'profoundly sorry' for having allowed 'institutional policies to remain in place that were racially hurtful.'"

Even the University is calling out its old practices for what they were: Thinly veiled racism
when I was in high school my school had a no-interracial dating policy also. I actually knew of two students who got supsended for it.

I don't buy the fear about hate crimes. You're still allowed to think and even speak racist ideas without running afoul of the law despite hate crimes legislation based on race.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:55 PM   #17
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^ For real? In central Florida in the late 80s? Wow. Even in Mississippi, I don't remember ever hearing about anything like that at the time, maybe it was just the area we lived in. Unofficial interracial dating polices, yes (typically enforced by the relevant girl's older brother's fist; one of my brothers had the crap beaten out of him once), but not official ones. The papers would've been all over that.
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:33 AM   #18
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^ For real? In central Florida in the late 80s?
Sad but true. It shames me to say this, but I think the fact that it was a private academy affiliated with our church made it easier for this policy to stay on the books for a longer period of time then it might have otherwise. Similar to BJU in that regard.

It was widely known that our vice principal had cat named Nigger as well.

My 8th grade teacher made a big speech in class about how he didn't like niggers (albiet explaining that not all black people were such).

Unfortunately, I have lots of similar stories from my days growing up in Florida.
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:50 AM   #19
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What was the reaction to the other students to that? Was it accepted as "normal"--just common sense?

God, that must have been a bitch.
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Old 05-02-2009, 10:24 AM   #20
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Sad but true. It shames me to say this, but I think the fact that it was a private academy affiliated with our church made it easier for this policy to stay on the books for a longer period of time then it might have otherwise. Similar to BJU in that regard.

It was widely known that our vice principal had cat named Nigger as well.

My 8th grade teacher made a big speech in class about how he didn't like niggers (albiet explaining that not all black people were such).

Unfortunately, I have lots of similar stories from my days growing up in Florida.
I went to high school in the early seventies and even then, there wasn't any rules in regards to dating. We could be suspended for fighting, smoking or cutting class.

The murder of Mathew is absolutely horrible. My heart goes out to his family.

I am a spiritual person and so are my friends. And none of us are homophobic, anti Jew, Black, etc. In fact a good friend of mine has a brother in law who is gay, with a lifetime partner.
He is a wonderful uncle to her son. Being gay does not equal child molester. That is a different matter, all together.
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Old 05-02-2009, 11:02 AM   #21
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Sad but true. It shames me to say this, but I think the fact that it was a private academy affiliated with our church made it easier for this policy to stay on the books for a longer period of time then it might have otherwise. Similar to BJU in that regard.
I honestly don't mean to be confrontational at all and I know you well enough that you won't take it that way, but what would compel you (or your family I suppose) to stay members of such a church? I mean, I cannot imagine doing so, and I don't even go to church myself anymore because I'm tired of priests yammering on about gays from the pulpit. But what you experienced is even more extreme and personal.
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Old 05-02-2009, 11:37 AM   #22
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Sad but true. It shames me to say this, but I think the fact that it was a private academy affiliated with our church made it easier for this policy to stay on the books for a longer period of time then it might have otherwise. Similar to BJU in that regard.

It was widely known that our vice principal had cat named Nigger as well.

My 8th grade teacher made a big speech in class about how he didn't like niggers (albiet explaining that not all black people were such).

Unfortunately, I have lots of similar stories from my days growing up in Florida.



wow. just, wow.

am sorry you had to deal with all that. it kind of blows my mind.
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Old 05-02-2009, 01:25 PM   #23
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I honestly don't mean to be confrontational at all and I know you well enough that you won't take it that way, but what would compel you (or your family I suppose) to stay members of such a church? I mean, I cannot imagine doing so, and I don't even go to church myself anymore because I'm tired of priests yammering on about gays from the pulpit. But what you experienced is even more extreme and personal.
Not that I can speak for him or even necessarily compare, but it reminds me of what I read about Clarence Thomas' earlier years:

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Raised Roman Catholic (he later attended an Episcopal church with his wife, but returned to the Catholic Church in the late 1990s), Thomas considered entering the priesthood at the age of 16, becoming the first black student to attend St. John Vianney's Minor Seminary (Savannah) on the Isle of Hope. He also attended Conception Seminary College, a Roman Catholic seminary in Missouri, briefly. No one in Thomas's family had attended college, and Thomas has said that during his first year in seminary he was one of only "three or four" blacks attending the school. Thomas told interviewers that he left the seminary after overhearing a student say, in response to the shooting of Martin Luther King, Jr., "Good, I hope the son of a bitch died." He did not think the church did enough to combat racism.

At a nun's suggestion, Thomas attended the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Massachusetts, where as a sophomore transfer student he had to adjust to a New England atmosphere very different from what he was used to in Savannah. At Holy Cross, Thomas helped found the Black Student Union and once walked out after an incident in which black students were punished while white students were not for committing the same violation. Some of the priests negotiated with the protesting black students to return to school, and Thomas graduated in 1971 with an A.B. cum laude in English literature.
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Old 05-02-2009, 03:17 PM   #24
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I have been reading these boards long enough to know about some of the things Sean has experienced. None of it surprises me. Knowing what part of the country he was raised in and in what time period.

I really don't think Sean needs to explain why he is a person of faith any more than any of use need to explain why we believe in the U S Justice System after the Alberto Gonzales and the Bush Administration abused and corrupted it.


Or why any of us support the Police and Law Enforcement when we read about bad cops and corruption.

What good would it have done if a young Sean walked away from a religious community, that gave him some comfort, only to walk into world where racism existed without comfort?

I should let Sean speak for himself.
I just don't feel it is our place to make what sounds like judgments, when most of use have not had the same situations and options presented to us.





and Clarence Thomas is a whole different story, I believe he is a bitter angry man.
Sean is not.
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Old 05-02-2009, 03:48 PM   #25
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I just don't feel it is our place to make what sounds like judgments, when most of use have not had the same situations and options presented to us.
I don't think Anitram was necessarily making a judgment about Sean, or at least not a negative one. I was wondering the same thing myself. It bothered me when I read Sean's comments, thinking that he lived with that as part of his daily experience. I guess being white and never having experienced any sort of racism, or never seeing any overt expression of racism around me, it seems to me that Sean and his family must have had some sort of inner strength or ability to turn the other cheek that I just don't possess. Anyway, I look forward to reading his response.
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Old 05-02-2009, 03:58 PM   #26
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I guess being white and never having experienced any sort of racism.

Me, I have only live in Los Angeles and Orange County California all my live.

And being white, male, and straight have I experienced any racism?

You bet, everyday.




edit to add:

I certainly was not addressing my post at anitram, she is wise way beyond her young years.

I was more directing this at all of us.
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:01 PM   #27
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Me, I have only live in Los Angeles and Orange County California all my live.

And being white, male, and straight have I experienced any racism?

You bet, everyday.
Well, Anitram and I are Canadian, and while it would be foolish to think that it's a completely racism-free nirvana here, I'm sure our experiences are quite different from many Americans, hence our curiosity.
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:27 PM   #28
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I remember that the way you often used to hear Southern evangelicals phrasing their opinion of BJU and its notorious dating policy was "They're too conservative" or perhaps "That's not correct Christian thinking." As opposed to "They're racists" or "They're not true Christians," which is probably what evangelicals in other parts of the country would have said. It's a Southern thing I think, and reflects the fact that racial segregation was the firmly enshrined "traditional culture" in the South within living memory of many, in a palpable and pervasive way that wasn't the case elsewhere, despite a considerable amount of de facto segregation being normative pretty much nationwide into the 1960s. And church communities in general are a major locus of transmission for what's traditional and time-honored, for good and for bad, so that social customs which are greatly eroded or altered elsewhere often persist in them longer--even when that's unsupported by the formal doctrine of the church or denomination in question. I would describe BJU's former policy as racist, but as a Southerner-by-upbringing I do also view it primarily as a consequence of beholdenness to a (bad) traditional worldview native to the region, rather than primarily as a consequence of an f-ed up theology (a la Fred Phelps). So I can understand where people were coming from whose comment might've been "They're too conservative," and why they chose to take an optimistic view of the possibility for change...after all, the surrounding culture has and continues to change, so there's reason to hope the various stagnated holdouts you might feel personal ties to for whichever reason may yet, too.

A bit more cynically (not to put words in Sean's mouth here, though), I also think that when you fall into the 'receiving end' category of these kinds of tradition-bound prejudices, and you're experiencing that at a point in time where the initial heave into a more egalitarian way of thinking is still a work in progress, you sometimes accept certain things as 'normal, expected social reality' in a way you never would later. There's a kind of psychological emancipation from a beaten-down, or self-loathing, or timid-outlier mentality (depending on which group you fall into) to a mindset of expectation that you should be treated equally, and accept nothing less without a fight. I experienced this myself growing up, and in various other ways so did many of my friends.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:46 PM   #29
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Me, I have only live in Los Angeles and Orange County California all my live.

And being white, male, and straight have I experienced any racism?

You bet, everyday.
Thats a very superficial racism though. Sure its annoying at the time, but we at least have to comfort to know that as straight white males, racism will never affect us in a profound way as it relates to our jobs or our place in society.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:41 PM   #30
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Well, Anitram and I are Canadian, and while it would be foolish to think that it's a completely racism-free nirvana here, I'm sure our experiences are quite different from many Americans, hence our curiosity.
sorry to butt in but i have the same curious and outraged perspective as an Australian. i cannot believe the religous hatred and bigotry that occurs in America , and the outrageous connection between church and government.


feel very lucky not to have to put up with any of it .
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