The Christian Pastor

[the iron horse]

Christian pastor faces execution in Iran for refusing to renounce his faith | Mail Online

 

[Jive Turkey]

This article perfectly illustrates the senselessness of religion. Thanks for posting, Iron Horse!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

'The world needs to stand up and say that a man cannot be put to death because of his faith.

It really depresses me that we still need to remind people of that in this day and age.

Geez. Horrible story. I admire him standing up for what he believes in, but then I look at that photo of his family...if I were him, I'd reconsider for their sake (and by reconsider I mean "pretend to repent").

I hope he can be saved from his potential fate somehow.

 

[deep]

I hope he can be saved from his potential fate somehow.

somehow ?????

WTF, this should be easier than making a fat kid eat cake.


The man has a wife and two kids

if he does not have the common sense to say,
and here it is, it is really easy,

"I renounce this Christian religion"

then he is a complete failure as a man, father, husband and human being, and most importantly >>>>>>>> Christian !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[coolian2]

this sounds like it could be solved as easily as when bart simpson had to apologise to australia.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

somehow ?????

WTF, this should be easier than making a fat kid eat cake.


The man has a wife and two kids

if he does not have the common sense to say,
and here it is, it is really easy,

"I renounce this Christian religion"

then he is a complete failure as a man, father, husband and human being.

I agree it's what I think would be best for him to do (though I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "failure"). But that's what I mean-I either hope he'll "renounce" his faith, or if he really refuses to do that, that someone else has the courage to come along and save him somehow.

 

[deep]

I agree it's what I think would be best for him to do (though I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "failure"). But that's what I mean-I either hope he'll "renounce" his faith, or if he really refuses to do that, that someone else has the courage to come along and save him somehow.

if he does not save himself, he is a 100% failure.

 

[Jive Turkey]

But if they ever decide to write another bible, this might be a good way to get in

 

[Irvine511]

this sounds like it could be solved as easily as when bart simpson had to apologise to australia.

Bullfrog? That's a funny name.

 

[BEAL]

But won't he be rewarded for standing up for his faith and his savior in the next life? Pitty he'll completely fuck over the lives of his family in this one.

Easy choice for most of us, but not so easy when you're delusional.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Bullfrog? That's a funny name.

Chazwozzer

 

[I Move in Mysterious Ways]

A pastor faces execution for his faith, and the sentiment I'm reading here is that it's the pastor at fault? Wow.

 

[Irvine511]

A pastor faces execution for his faith, and the sentiment I'm reading here is that it's the pastor at fault? Wow.

in a way, i agree that the tone in here isn't as respectful as it should be, and i contributed so i'm partially to blame. i don't think anyone is saying this is a good thing or that the Iranian government isn't batshit Stone Age crazy.

but the broader point is that this man is willing to die -- leaving his wife a widow and his children without a father -- rather than "repenting." for some, this seems crazy. like, i'm quite sure Jesus would understand if he could pretend to repent.

 

[coolian2]

may i also cite trash of the titans as an alternate, simpsons based precedent?

 

[yolland]

For the record, his wife herself spent 10 months in prison, during which she too refused to recant, before being acquitted (generally, only community leaders such as pastors are held indefinitely like this for "apostasy" in Iran). So I doubt she, for one, would consider herself "fucked over" if her husband likewise refused to repent. It should also be kept in mind that Nadarkhani isn't just any old "apostate," he's a community leader looked up to by his cohort in a country where religious minorities (converts or otherwise) are marginalized and vulnerable even in the best of times.

but the broader point is that this man is willing to die -- leaving his wife a widow and his children without a father -- rather than "repenting." for some, this seems crazy.

I understand this perspective, and am not sure what I personally might do in the hard-to-imagine event that I were in a similar situation. (Some in my father's family were apparently Marranos aka crypto-Jews back in Portugal before fleeing to Amsterdam, so, there's a kind of precedent there I guess.) But I seriously doubt many people in this situation could be properly (and dismissively) characterized as helplessly ruled by fear that God Will Get Mad If I Repent, or I'm Gonna Be A Hero In Heaven If I Resist. This is also a freedom of conscience issue, a stand with one's life for what is broadly internationally recognized as a fundamental human right, with ethical ramifications beyond just the individual and his immediate family. What else are people sometimes punished and executed for in this world that they could always pretend not to practice or believe in, for the sake of staying around to help support their families? I can think of other things...There's a case to be made that we have greater obligations than those to one's spouse and children, and I'm not just talking about God. I don't think (well, actually, I know) the responses here would be the same if this were, say, an atheist being persecuted.

 

[LemonMelon]

like, i'm quite sure Jesus would understand if he could pretend to repent.

From the perspective of a pastor whose religion is centered on a man who didn't take the easy way out when being executed for heresy (re: give into the mocking and literally call angels down to save him), this isn't an option. And I can't necessarily agree that Jesus would understand him recanting either, beyond the idea that Jesus was an understanding guy around us human folk. He was about some things, but he also said this:

"...whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

So, no, not really an option in his situation. Basically I'm saying what BEAL said, minus the condescending tone that briefly made me want to punch him through the monitor. All them delusionations and shit are getting me riled up.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I don't think (well, actually, I know) the responses here would be the same if this were, say, an atheist being persecuted.

I personally would suggest the same thing to an atheist that I'm suggesting to the pastor. Just tell them what they want to hear, and then once I was free, I'd get the hell out of that area.

And again, this is what I would do if I were in his shoes. He's entitled to make his own choice, however, of course.

Interesting to know his wife did the same thing-okay, so she'd be supportive of his decision to stick up for himself. I just look at those kids, though, and it'd be really hard for me to not want to do everything possible, include lying about something that means a lot to me, to still be with them. The kids are the thing that just make me pause the most in this story. Like I said, though, their willingness to be defiant in the face of batshit crazy extremism is kinda admirable.

 

[maycocksean]

Sophie Scholl and her friends were willing to give their lives for what they believe. Would it not have been okay if she'd been married with kids?

To quote from the anniversary thread: "But their willingness to risk everything for doing what they felt was right, that is quite amazing. "

Or is it only admirable if I understand what you believe in. If my opinion is that your beliefs are a crock then that makes you an immoral fool.

 

[corianderstem]

A pastor faces execution for his faith, and the sentiment I'm reading here is that it's the pastor at fault? Wow.

Rule #523 of FYM: You have to understand when deep is just being deep. (er .... being himself.)

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Sophie Scholl and her friends were willing to give their lives for what they believe. Would it not have been okay if she'd been married with kids?

To quote from the anniversary thread: "But their willingness to risk everything for doing what they felt was right, that is quite amazing. "

Or is it only admirable if I understand what you believe in. If my opinion is that your beliefs are a crock then that makes you an immoral fool.

I thought of that thread, too. And you're right. It would be wrong for me to okay it in one instance and frown upon it in another. Especially since those students were fairly young-people would likely have thought them crazy, too, for risking their lives at such a young age.

And now that I think even more about it it sort of embarrasses me to think I wouldn't be brave enough to stand up for myself in such crazy circumstances. That makes me realize something about myself that I don't really like knowing.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Different OP, different responses. For the people getting really riled up (lemelllllllll) I would take that into consideration.
I just find it difficult to sympathize with a religion that was basically doing the exact same thing 500 years ago and is reaping all the rewards today. Especially considering Islam is roughly as old now as Christianity was then.

 

[Jive Turkey]

"...whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

You know I like you, lemel, so take this with a grain of salt, but when trying to distinguish between what quotes from Jesus might be true and what quotes may have been attributed to him after the fact, it's worth considering what the motivation behind the quote may be. When I read something like this, it's clear to me that it was most likely included to keep numbers up. It doesn't seem very Christ-like

 

[Jive Turkey]

And then there's also this, which I strongly suggest you take into consideration

 

[Rachel D.]

Different OP, different responses. For the people getting really riled up (lemelllllllll) I would take that into consideration.
I just find it difficult to sympathize with a religion that was basically doing the exact same thing 500 years ago and is reaping all the rewards today. Especially considering Islam is roughly as old now as Christianity was then.

You can't blame Christians for things done by the Catholic church. They were the ones killing people who didn't repent. The Bible was still only in Latin, so the non-elites didn't have a clue about what Christ really taught.

It's easy to say that someone should disown their faith to save their life if you don't believe in anything yourself. Hate was never stopped by people giving up on their beliefs.

 

[anitram]

You can't blame Christians for things done by the Catholic church. They were the ones killing people who didn't repent. The Bible was still only in Latin, so the non-elites didn't have a clue about what Christ really taught.

It's easy to say that someone should disown their faith to save their life if you don't believe in anything yourself. Hate was never stopped by people giving up on their beliefs.

That just reinforces JT's point - you have probably close to a billion Muslims around the world who memorize the salahs in Arabic and are able to read the Arabic Quran but don't actually speak or understand the language.

 

[U2DMfan]

You know I like you, lemel, so take this with a grain of salt, but when trying to distinguish between what quotes from Jesus might be true and what quotes may have been attributed to him after the fact, it's worth considering what the motivation behind the quote may be. When I read something like this, it's clear to me that it was most likely included to keep numbers up. It doesn't seem very Christ-like

I think most scholars agree that Mark is the oldest and John is the newest and has less harmony with the others. That quote, according to Saint Google (because I didn't recognize it), is from Matthew, which - along with Luke - could be considered the 2nd oldest.

Although any time we start opining about the Bible, I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[LemonMelon]

I think most scholars agree that Mark is the oldest and John is the newest and has less harmony with the others. That quote, according to Saint Google (because I didn't recognize it), is from Matthew, which - along with Luke - could be considered the 2nd oldest.

Although any time we start opining about the Bible, I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Correct. I suppose Matthew could have some unfortunate additions and deviations, as the book is based on Mark but doesn't match it entirely. I find the topic fascinating. Luke, funny enough, has an entirely different meal order for the Last Supper that matches Jewish Passover, in stark contrast to the other three Gospels. Re: what Jive said about motivation, this distinction was purported to be a political choice.

Sorry, this took the thread a bit off topic.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Correct. I suppose Matthew could have some unfortunate additions and deviations, as the book is based on Mark but doesn't match it entirely. I find the topic fascinating. Luke, funny enough, has an entirely different meal order for the Last Supper that matches Jewish Passover, in stark contrast to the other three Gospels. Re: what Jive said about motivation, this distinction was purported to be a political choice.

What about Silky Steve and Magnum Johnson?

 

[LemonMelon]

Straight Outta Taco Bell

 

[Vincent Vega]

Sophie Scholl and her friends were willing to give their lives for what they believe. Would it not have been okay if she'd been married with kids?

To quote from the anniversary thread: "But their willingness to risk everything for doing what they felt was right, that is quite amazing. "

Or is it only admirable if I understand what you believe in. If my opinion is that your beliefs are a crock then that makes you an immoral fool.

That was me.

I think this pastor also needs to decide for himself what he thinks is the right thing to do. But since he has kids, I think this adds another layer to the story.
I wouldn't judge him if he gave his life for his belief, though I'd most probably be different about it if I were in his shoes.

I guess another difference is, while Sophie and Hans Scholl, along with their friends, saw that a senseless mass-killing was going on and they saw it as their duty to do everything to stop it, this pastor's motivation is, in the view of most, less great. But then again, just consider how many Irish Catholics went through basically the same for centuries, especially during the Penal laws era. And to this day, people all over the world give up everything for their faith. He is not the only one. I don't think we should get on the high road and say, "This is what you have to do!"