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Old 08-28-2009, 12:08 AM   #46
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i should have another glass of wine, is that what you're saying?

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Old 08-28-2009, 12:14 AM   #47
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If it produces posts like that, then by all means!
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:56 AM   #48
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RIP, Sen. Kennedy.

he fought for the outcasts, the unloved, the freaks. and for that, he is a giant of the 20th century, the century that saw the greatest expansion of civil rights to previously despised minorities in the history of the world.

Nice.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:10 AM   #49
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My mother's been telling me about how she met him many years ago, how her mother took her when he spoke to her church womens club She shook President Kennedy's hand too at a rally. I've heard this all before but I never get tired of hearing it again. She also sent him a letter when the President was killed and he sent her one back but she doesn't know where it is. She also used to go to Mission Church when she was a kid, it's a beautiful church as you will see on Saturday if you watch.

As for the rest why bother, I don't care any more. But as for me I don't put myself in the place of judging whether anyone will go to heaven or hell, I'm not God. He who is without sin can cast the first stone, so carry on.
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Old 08-28-2009, 07:58 PM   #50
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New York Times


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August 30, 2009
In Kennedy, the Last Roar of the New Deal Liberal
By SAM TANENHAUS

“An important chapter in our history has come to an end,” Barack Obama said in his first public remarks on the death of Senator Edward M. Kennedy. “Our country has lost a great leader, who picked up the torch of his fallen brothers and became the greatest United States senator of our time.”

What Mr. Obama didn’t say — and perhaps didn’t need to — was that the closed chapter was the vision of liberalism begun by the New Deal of Franklin D. Roosevelt, extended during the Great Society of Lyndon B. Johnson and now struggling back toward relevance. It holds that the forces of government should be marshaled to improve conditions for the greatest possible number of Americans, with particular emphasis on the excluded and disadvantaged. It is not government’s only obligation, in this view, but it is the paramount one.

No major political figure of the past half-century was so deeply invested in this idea as Mr. Kennedy was. It underlay the staggering number of bills he created or sponsored in his long Senate career, whether in medical care or education, on behalf of immigrants or labor unions. And it underlay Mr. Kennedy’s crusade for universal health care — “a right, not a privilege,” as he declared at the Democratic National Convention last August.

The belief in government as the guardian of opportunity and advancement is not a complicated one, but it is fraught with ambiguities — including the risks incurred when government grows too large and also too expensive. Indeed, the peak years of Mr. Kennedy’s Senate career, the 1980s and ’90s, coincided with the ascendancy of a counter-vision, captured in Ronald Reagan’s assertion: “Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.”

In that period, many Democrats began to rethink the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society. Many distanced themselves from “the L word.” And Mr. Kennedy appeared out of step. As the authors of “Last Lion: The Fall and Rise of Ted Kennedy,” observe, “Even in his own party, his liberalism had seemed, at times, outmoded as the ‘third way’ of the Clintons gained ascendance in the Washington of the 1990s.”

So too in 2008 the party’s top presidential contenders dependably referred to themselves as “progressives.”

Still, Mr. Kennedy was unwavering. It is hard to imagine any contemporary Democrat taking the podium as Mr. Kennedy did last summer in Denver to reprise the celebrated oration he had made at the 1980 convention in New York. But Mr. Kennedy did — without apology. The passage of time, and the reordered political landscape, had not obscured his causes or dimmed his rhetoric.

His roots in old-fashioned liberalism went deep. Like his brothers, he was reared in the towering shadow of President Roosevelt, who was first elected president in 1932, the year Edward Kennedy was born.

But the older Kennedy brothers drifted away from New Deal politics. John F. Kennedy stood at the center of a new post-ideological pragmatism. In 1962, the year Edward Kennedy was first elected to the Senate, President Kennedy asserted that while “most of us are conditioned for many years to have a political viewpoint — Republican or Democrat, liberal, conservative or moderate,” in reality the most pressing government concerns were “technical problems, administrative problems” that “do not lend themselves to the great sort of passionate movements which have stirred this country so often in the past.”

Robert F. Kennedy, in contrast, was drawn to passionate movements, but his devotions could shift with the political winds. An anti-Communist in the 1950s — when he worked briefly on the staff of Senator Joseph R. McCarthy — Robert later embraced the “New Politics” of the late 1960s, with its strong flavor of anti-establishment protest. In the 1968 election he seemed to be simultaneously courting militant leftists and aggrieved white ethnics stirred by the populist demagoguery of the segregationist George Wallace.

It was Edward, the youngest brother, whose “true compass” — to borrow the title of his forthcoming memoir — pointed unerringly toward New Deal liberalism. He became its champion — its guardian — for the remainder of his life.

This earned him the reputation for being the populist Kennedy, gifted with the common touch. Certainly he enjoyed politics at the retail level — plunging into the crowd, shaking hands.

But Mr. Kennedy’s accomplishments in the political arts were mixed. He excelled at stumping for others, as he did in his brothers’ presidential campaigns. And he performed impressively for Mr. Obama in 2008. Just before the deluge of primaries in early February, when the contest between Mr. Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton was tight, Mr. Kennedy drew large crowds in California and New Mexico, where shouts of “Viva Kennedy” greeted his visits to the barrios, whose residents knew of his support for immigrants and labor unions.

But on other occasions Mr. Kennedy faltered. His intemperate denunciation of Judge Robert H. Bork in 1987 helped poison the atmosphere of Supreme Court appointments up to the present day.

His one signal talent was for legislation, the painstaking, glacial business of shaping bills and laws. He learned at the feet of Senate giants like Richard Russell, who had also been a mentor to another superb legislator, Lyndon Johnson.

The friction between Mr. Kennedy’s uncertain feel for politics and his instinctive command of governance led to his gravest miscalculation, his ill-executed attempt to unseat his party’s incumbent president, Jimmy Carter, in the 1980 primaries.

“No real difference of politics separated Kennedy from Carter,” Theodore H. White noted when he revisited the episode in 1982.

Mr. White, curious to grasp the motives behind this quixotic mission, pressed Mr. Kennedy about it. At first Mr. Kennedy haltingly remarked on Mr. Carter’s failed leadership and squandered opportunities. But when prodded further, he delivered “a stunning discussion of just how laws are passed, of how Carter’s amateur lobbyists had messed up program after program by odd legislative couplings of unsorted programs,” Mr. White wrote. “Then, details cascading from him more and more rapidly, he concluded in an outburst of frustration” that Mr. Carter was incompetent. “Even on issues we agree on, he doesn’t know how to do it,” Mr. Kennedy told Mr. White, who likened his attitude to “the contempt of a master machinist for a plumber’s assistant.”

The paradox was that by challenging Mr. Carter, Mr. Kennedy weakened him in the general election, and thus assisted in the victory of Mr. Reagan, who promptly ushered in the conservative counter-revolution, founded on distrust of government, that Mr. Kennedy spent the next three decades battling, losing as often as he won.

The literary critic Lionel Trilling once wondered why so many liberal intellectuals he knew seemed unnerved by any mention of death. Might it be, he speculated, because death was, “in practical outcome, a negation of the future and of the hope it holds out for a society of reason and virtue?”

Mr. Trilling had in mind the “progressives” of the 1930s and ’40s, who were lit with utopian dreams and intoxicated, in many instances, by the Soviet “experiment.”

Mr. Kennedy’s liberalism had its basis in something different — New Deal meliorism, with its hopeful spirit of reform.

And he brought to it in its later stages a quality of chastened knowledge, the hardiness of the survivor. Mr. Kennedy was, of course, uniquely versed in the concrete facts of death. All three of his brothers died young, two slain by assassins’ bullets. And for 40 years he bore the guilt of the death he caused in Chappaquiddick in 1969.

Becoming “the greatest senator of our time” could not atone for this. Nor could it redress Mr. Kennedy’s many other trespasses — the boozing and womanizing and the suffering it brought.

But if the art of governance did not redeem Mr. Kennedy, it irradiated him, and the liberalism he personified. At a time when government itself had fallen into disrepute Mr. Kennedy applied himself diligently to its exacting discipline, and wrested whatever small victories he could from the machinery he had learned to operate so well. Whether or not his compass was finally true, he endured as the battered, leaky vessel through which the legislative arts recovered some of their lost glory.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:50 PM   #51
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For those of you who know me I lived at the Kennedy Library in college and have read as much as I can about the family. I lived near the compound as a child. I work five minutes away from the compound today. My son attended baseball camp with the Senator's grandchild this summer and the family was just like you or I, there to watch their kid play, sharing in the joy of watching children, be children. You would not have known they were any different from you or I.

Agree with his politics or not, this man and his family have given back to the world in many ways. For that I thank him because there are so many born into privelage who could have done nothing but continue to further their fortunes. I was brought to tears when a mutual friend of mine and Senator Kennedy was on the radio here on Cape Cod relaying the political arguments they had privately and how they were still able to respect each other and be friends. I wish more in the political arena could realize that the political differences we have, should not define our relationships with each other.

The man had flaws. So do I. I hope I can carry my bumps, bruises, nicks, and imprefections and failings with as much dignitiy as this man did. By ALL accounts, he carried many of his flaws like a weight on him daily.

I went by the compound this week. I stood along the highway and said my goodbye.

RIP
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Old 08-29-2009, 01:29 PM   #52
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That was a moving and lovely tribute for Sen. Kennedy.
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Old 08-29-2009, 01:42 PM   #53
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I occasionally post on another political forum... there, half of the posters are totally apathetic about Kennedy's death and the other half are praising his death and calling for him to burn in hell. And I'm not kidding... these posts started cropping up a few minutes after he died. I certainly hope Ted Kennedy is enjoying not having to deal with those type of people anymore.

Thank you, Interference, for comparative sanity.
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Old 08-29-2009, 01:46 PM   #54
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The Kennedy family has their issues, but they are true symbols of America... flawed in many ways, but generally well-intentioned forward-thinking idealists. Teddy was very much this. RIP.



Rest in Peace
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Old 08-29-2009, 04:21 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
For those of you who know me I lived at the Kennedy Library in college and have read as much as I can about the family. I lived near the compound as a child. I work five minutes away from the compound today. My son attended baseball camp with the Senator's grandchild this summer and the family was just like you or I, there to watch their kid play, sharing in the joy of watching children, be children. You would not have known they were any different from you or I.

Agree with his politics or not, this man and his family have given back to the world in many ways. For that I thank him because there are so many born into privelage who could have done nothing but continue to further their fortunes. I was brought to tears when a mutual friend of mine and Senator Kennedy was on the radio here on Cape Cod relaying the political arguments they had privately and how they were still able to respect each other and be friends. I wish more in the political arena could realize that the political differences we have, should not define our relationships with each other.

The man had flaws. So do I. I hope I can carry my bumps, bruises, nicks, and imprefections and failings with as much dignitiy as this man did. By ALL accounts, he carried many of his flaws like a weight on him daily.

I went by the compound this week. I stood along the highway and said my goodbye.

RIP
God bless you. That was a beautiful tribute.
I can't stop crying ... my family is a large Irish/Catholic bunch, mostly Democrats, so we have a great affinity with the Kennedy's and feel like family even though we have never met them. So proud. The stories my father tells me about JFK in the 60's being the first Irish Catholic president are truly inspiring. They are part of our family story, as I am sure they for so many other Irish Americans. But what is so great is that their story is every American's story, because they were/are champions for everyone.

Teddy Jr.'s story today at the mass was so moving...
everyone including me was crying. What a great story, what a great family.
RIP Uncle Teddy.
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:36 PM   #56
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I'm watching the burial now. It is so sad
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Old 08-29-2009, 10:04 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
For those of you who know me I lived at the Kennedy Library in college and have read as much as I can about the family. I lived near the compound as a child. I work five minutes away from the compound today. My son attended baseball camp with the Senator's grandchild this summer and the family was just like you or I, there to watch their kid play, sharing in the joy of watching children, be children. You would not have known they were any different from you or I.

Agree with his politics or not, this man and his family have given back to the world in many ways. For that I thank him because there are so many born into privelage who could have done nothing but continue to further their fortunes. I was brought to tears when a mutual friend of mine and Senator Kennedy was on the radio here on Cape Cod relaying the political arguments they had privately and how they were still able to respect each other and be friends. I wish more in the political arena could realize that the political differences we have, should not define our relationships with each other.

The man had flaws. So do I. I hope I can carry my bumps, bruises, nicks, and imprefections and failings with as much dignitiy as this man did. By ALL accounts, he carried many of his flaws like a weight on him daily.

I went by the compound this week. I stood along the highway and said my goodbye.

RIP
That was so moving Matt, Thank You. I also happened to be able to be along the highway to say goodbye. I had the day off of work and was heading to Brewster for a camping weekend (shortened by rain). He has done great things and it saddens me how so many people can't look beyond the flaws. You are so right...everyone has flaws and he had so much tragedy and responsibility/weight thrown his way to break anyone with a good heart and best intentions. I think it's great that he was able to become whole finally in the last years of his life. I am very grateful to what he and his family have given to the world. You are so right, he could have just furthered his fortune.
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Old 08-30-2009, 02:59 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
For those of you who know me I lived at the Kennedy Library in college and have read as much as I can about the family. I lived near the compound as a child. I work five minutes away from the compound today. My son attended baseball camp with the Senator's grandchild this summer and the family was just like you or I, there to watch their kid play, sharing in the joy of watching children, be children. You would not have known they were any different from you or I.

Agree with his politics or not, this man and his family have given back to the world in many ways. For that I thank him because there are so many born into privelage who could have done nothing but continue to further their fortunes. I was brought to tears when a mutual friend of mine and Senator Kennedy was on the radio here on Cape Cod relaying the political arguments they had privately and how they were still able to respect each other and be friends. I wish more in the political arena could realize that the political differences we have, should not define our relationships with each other.

The man had flaws. So do I. I hope I can carry my bumps, bruises, nicks, and imprefections and failings with as much dignitiy as this man did. By ALL accounts, he carried many of his flaws like a weight on him daily.

I went by the compound this week. I stood along the highway and said my goodbye.

RIP
Thank you for posting that, Dread. I wish you'd post more often.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:45 PM   #59
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I think it's sad that at the funeral they used the intercessory prayers to promote a political agenda.

Ted had enough on his his personal plate to clear up with his Savior.

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Old 08-31-2009, 02:48 PM   #60
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I think it's sad that at the funeral they used the intercessory prayers to promote a political agenda.


Ted has known he was going to die for over a year.

likely, it was his idea.
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