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Old 09-10-2008, 07:31 AM   #61
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You can say those things would rise but if you eliminate all the people that are here illegally the burden on our resources would be eased. Less traffic...we clearly saw this effect on the "day without immigrants" last year. Electricity, Water, Gas, Public services, Education funds,...there is a positive effect on all of it. We could pay more for food and services if we are not getting hit in all the other areas. Supply and demand.
This MAY occur in a place like California, but it's not true throughout the country.


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Back at ya...Truth? Yeah, 12 Million illegals brought over by businesses looking for cheap labor. No, more often it is one coming here, getting a job and shipping all their money back south of the border for the next family member to be smuggled across. It is a fact that an insane amount of money from immigrants in California ends up back in Mexico. So much for these hard working immigrants investing back in the local economy.
Yes this occurs, but only a small portion of illegal immigrants come here by paying thousands to a smuggler.

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I live in an area with an extremely high number of immigrants from the Far East. There is a large Koren population in the area. These people don't seem to have any problem going through the process to come here legally. I also know that they make an immediate effort to learn English. How is it they can do it? I know Canadians who are here working in the LA area...they did it legally too.
Yes because I'm sure the economy and education system in Korea and Canada is comprable to Mexico... Oh dear.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:35 AM   #62
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I'm asked about amnesty, I say yes, and provide some reasonable rules and changes to our system. Do we have a rational debate about it..NO. Not even close! What I do get is attacked with what about a person trying to feed their kid? Way to go for the emotional, you cant be heartless enough to say a child should starve ploy! I though there could be a reasonable discussion about this but I was clearly wrong. I give up!
Now who's playing the "emotional" card?

You thought that was an 'attack'? Given some of the things you said when you started posting in here recently and what I asked was an attack? You've got to be kidding... You are right maybe you aren't capable of reasonable discussion.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:45 PM   #63
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In the interest of attempting to inject a little structure into the discussion...

What do you guys think about e-Verify, the new electronic verification program the Bush Administration is championing to make employers run SSN background checks on all prospective employees? Or the controversial 'no-match' proposals requiring employers to act on notices from Social Security informing them of mismatches in employees' SSN data?

ICE has recently dramatically stepped up large-scale raids at businesses with large numbers of unauthorized workers (as well as criminal prosecutions of employers and, more controversially, employees)--most notably at Agriprocessors Inc. in Postville, IA back in May, most recently at Howard Industries in Laurel, MS.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:53 PM   #64
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In the interest of attempting to inject a little structure into the discussion...

What do you guys think about e-Verify, the new electronic verification program the Bush Administration is championing to make employers run SSN background checks on all prospective employees?
So far everything I've seen on the system is that it's very flawed...
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:49 PM   #65
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I hope you didn't take my comments as a personal attack. I'm definitely guilty of falling short in that respect as well. It's just that, well yes, I think if many who identify themselves as Christians truly were living up to the badge, then yes, opening up to those who can't feed their children and opening up our homes to those less fortunate might not be such a radical concept. Even those who may have done wrong/committed crimes.

But I don't want to turn this into a debate on Christianity. My apologies.
Thanks Diemen, apology accepted and appreciated: I'll tell you why there is a problem with you, or any of the others, trying to tie Christianity to this is issue. I'm confident if I were try tie Christianity to our governments role with regard to gay marriage, homosexuality, sex-before marriage, etc...... you would make the argument of the separating of church and state. I'd be eaten alive for trying to bring God into Washington.. That is why I though it was unfair here. I was discussing illegal immigration from a standpoint of what I feel the government has to do to fix things.

I think you might be mistaking my opinion on government policy with my personal conviction. It was Joe Biden this week who said he believes life begins at conception (personal view) but that his personal view would not dictate his decision for our nation. I even said I respected his opinion. Am I allowed that same consideration? As I said earlier, as an individual I support several charities. Some are based on my faith in God and some are deeply personal. I have supported HIV/AIDS research (because people I care about have lost family members to this awful disease) I support breast cancer research (I lost my sister to the bastard that is cancer) I support the LA Mission who feed , clothe, house and rehabilitate the homeless in downtown LA (a friends family was the ones who started this fantastic facility). Pres Bush wanted to have government support of "Faith Based" program. Liberals were saying no ...separation of church and state!!! These are the types of programs that help that "mother who has no money to feed her kids" that BVS brought up. They not only provide that kind of help her in the US and they take it to the world. I attend church at Saddleback...I'm sure it is a name that you know from the recent forum with McCain and Obama. You should check out their web site and see what is being done all around the world. These wonderful people are living their faith and taking real action, not just wearing ONE bracelets and sending a text message at a concerts. I'm not knocking ONE but I have seen many wearing a bracelet and they have no idea what the campaign is really about. The people of Saddleback are changing the world and bringing some of our hope and love to the far corners of the world.

This is why I dont think it is our governments responsibility to allow people to come here illegally. Our country has programs to take care of our own. We can help women like in your example because our government has a responsibility to the citizens of the US. If you individually are honestly concerned about these people in need and not just using them as an example to win an argument, then what are you doing to make a difference? If you really care, are you willing to support faith base funding or does your concerne for these downtrodden folks end if it requires you do something that is supporting of those awful Christian?
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:57 PM   #66
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I'll tell you why there is a problem with you, or any of the others, trying to tie Christianity to this is issue. I'm confident if I were try tie Christianity to our governments role with regard to gay marriage, homosexuality, sex-before marriage, etc...... you would make the argument of the separating of church and state. I'd be eaten alive for trying to bring God into Washington.. That is why I though it was unfair here. I was discussing illegal immigration from a standpoint of what I feel the government has to do to fix things.
BUT your party is notorious for doing just this. Maybe not you personally, but a big portion of your party is hypocritical in this area. They use religion when it comes to gay marriage(for there is no secular argument), they want the 10 commandments in courthouses, prayer in school, etc yet use separation of church and state when it suits them.
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:18 PM   #67
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BUT your party is notorious for doing just this. Maybe not you personally, but a big portion of your party is hypocritical in this area. They use religion when it comes to gay marriage(for there is no secular argument), they want the 10 commandments in courthouses, prayer in school, etc yet use separation of church and state when it suits them.
Sure, but we are not talking about my party or your party here. In this forum I was giving my personal view on the subject of Illegal Immigration and I had the question of Christianity thrown at me. I have not pushed my Christianity on you with any of the topics discussed in these forums, including the topics of sex-ed in schools and abortion, areas when it is often that case. I think I have been fair enough to not be lumped in with "your party is notorious for doing just this" Please try to give the benefit of the doubt and read what I, me, Chas, is saying. I'm not simply defined the as same as all Conservative Christian Republicans no more than you are with Liberal Democrats or whatever group you may associate with.

I'd would really like to get your answer to my question about funding for faith based programs. The type that help that mom with no money for food that you asked about.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:43 PM   #68
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Sure, but we are not talking about my party or your party here. In this forum I was giving my personal view on the subject of Illegal Immigration and I had the question of Christianity thrown at me. I have not pushed my Christianity on you with any of the topics discussed in these forums, including the topics of sex-ed in schools and abortion, areas when it is often that case. I think I have been fair enough to not be lumped in with "your party is notorious for doing just this" Please try to give the benefit of the doubt and read what I, me, Chas, is saying. I'm not simply defined the as same as all Conservative Christian Republicans no more than you are with Liberal Democrats or whatever group you may associate with.
Fair enough.

I didn't question you faith, I'm just stating why I think it may have come up.

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I'd would really like to get your answer to my question about funding for faith based programs. The type that help that mom with no money for food that you asked about.
I'm torn about faith based programs and the government, I'm not strictly against them but I'm not sure how one discerns which ones can be funded and which ones can't with out subjectivity getting in the way.

That being said this is a much much bigger issue; charity isn't going to be the solution and neither is kicking them all out. I think there needs to be some kind of compromise in working on getting as many immigrants documented and legal.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:04 PM   #69
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Fair enough.

I didn't question you faith, I'm just stating why I think it may have come up.



I'm torn about faith based programs and the government, I'm not strictly against them but I'm not sure how one discerns which ones can be funded and which ones can't with out subjectivity getting in the way.

That being said this is a much much bigger issue; charity isn't going to be the solution and neither is kicking them all out. I think there needs to be some kind of compromise in working on getting as many immigrants documented and legal.
Thanks for the honest answer.

I agree with the compromise. I even said that the dam is already burst and deportation of everyone here is not possible for dozens of good reasons. That is why I said that the ones getting any amnesty should not be allowed to become citizens. The are getting to stay in the country but the consequence of initially coming in illegally, the compromise, is not having to opportunity to be a citizen, have voting rights and the other benefits afforded to our citizens. I think that is very small thing to give up on the immigrant side. I have no idea how many would even want to become citizens anything.
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:34 PM   #70
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Thanks for the honest answer.

I agree with the compromise. I even said that the dam is already burst and deportation of everyone here is not possible for dozens of good reasons. That is why I said that the ones getting any amnesty should not be allowed to become citizens. The are getting to stay in the country but the consequence of initially coming in illegally, the compromise, is not having to opportunity to be a citizen, have voting rights and the other benefits afforded to our citizens. I think that is very small thing to give up on the immigrant side. I have no idea how many would even want to become citizens anything.
Just a question/thought; if your idea was applied, and these immigrants who came in illegally were allowed to stay but not given citizenship, wouldn't that mean that technically they wouldn't be protected by the constitution - i.e. they wouldn't have the rights and protections guaranteed by the bill of rights - freedom of speech, right against self-incrimination/double jeopardy, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, right to trial by jury, etc.? If so, that seems like it would take away many of the reasons these people would've wanted to live here in the first place.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:47 PM   #71
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Just a question/thought; if your idea was applied, and these immigrants who came in illegally were allowed to stay but not given citizenship, wouldn't that mean that technically they wouldn't be protected by the constitution - i.e. they wouldn't have the rights and protections guaranteed by the bill of rights - freedom of speech, right against self-incrimination/double jeopardy, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, right to trial by jury, etc.? If so, that seems like it would take away many of the reasons these people would've wanted to live here in the first place.
First, what protections are there for people that come here legally and obtain a greencard? They are not citizens. There have been immigration rallies here in LA where illegals have gathered. The police did not round them up and bus them out. They kept the peace and allowed them the right to meet and protest. We are a pretty civil country. I think you are reaching if you think that giving amnesty but not citizenship is going to result in the losses you spoke of. BTW, how many illegals have committed crimes and received a trial by jury? If we do that for an person illegally here I think it is safe to say that we'd do it for one granted amnesty. Question, would you agree with revoking amnesty if they were convicted of a felony?

The overwhelming argument I hear is that people are coming here to work. If you talk about illegal immigration, what gets thrown at you instantly? Just look back the the responses to what I posted. Its, "Who is going to pick your food, do the dishes, clean the hotel rooms?" The argument is who is going to do the jobs that the immigrants are doing? I doubt there are many who are coming here to be protected from double jeopardy or for a trial by jury. They are looking for a way to provide for their family and live in a place that is safe.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:54 PM   #72
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Question, would you agree with revoking amnesty if they were convicted of a felony?
I agree that if, pre-amnesty, they have committed a crime other than entering the country illegally, then no amnesty. If they commit a crime like that after being granted amnesty...they'd probably go to jail anyway...does it make a difference if they're in an American jail or in a jail in their home country?
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Old 09-12-2008, 06:33 PM   #73
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If they commit a crime like that after being granted amnesty...they'd probably go to jail anyway...does it make a difference if they're in an American jail or in a jail in their home country?
Yes, it does make a difference. Let the Mexicans or whomever pay for their incarceration. Not the taxpayers of Arizona, California, Texas, etc.
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Old 10-03-2008, 07:29 PM   #74
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Just an FYI to consider...

Money sent home by Mexicans in US drops 12 percent

Even though the numbers are down, nearly 2 Billion dollars a month (15.5 Billion for 8 months) are being pulled out of the US economy and going straight to Mexico!

Note that 2 Billion per month is just Mexico, how much more is going to other countries? Also, I wonder how much of that is from my state, California, which is dealing with financial issues? I'm sure that what ever the amount, it would help our state if it were growing our local economy and not that of Mexico.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:25 PM   #75
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This seems to me to be more of an argument against immigrants in general than necessarily illegal immigration. I doubt we'd ever be able to parse what percentage of that money is getting sent by illegal immigrants, but even fully legal immigrants send money to their families in their home countries. I know quite a few myself who do so. Should we discourage them from doing so?
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