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Old 08-19-2009, 02:41 PM   #121
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^ harpy.

No, no. . that's just YOU.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:41 PM   #122
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If the burden of proof lies on me what am I trying to prove?
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:45 PM   #123
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Was Avanti! the official voice of the Italian Socialist Party while under the editorship of Mussolini?

Yes or no?
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:53 PM   #124
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Who did you wish to begin with? The Italian Fascists, the German Nazis, the Russian Communists or Wilson Progressivism? Or perhaps the myth that fascism and communism are opposites?

from another thread:
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I'll be more than happy to set you straight on the subject if you'd like to start a new thread.
If they were right-wing they were right-wing socialists and only in comparison to Stalin and the Bolshevik revolutionaries.
and:
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Nazi, also known as the National Socialist German Workers' Party I believe.

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If the burden of proof lies on me what am I trying to prove?

There ya go.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:53 PM   #125
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If the burden of proof lies on me what am I trying to prove?
Fascism equals socialism--the whole point of the thread was for you to be able make your case. I'm not saying you haven't tried. I am saying it isn't compelling so far.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:58 PM   #126
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Was Avanti! the official voice of the Italian Socialist Party while under the editorship of Mussolini?

Yes or no?
Umm. . .I'm going to go ahead and say yes?

Was Jim Jones the pastor of a Christian church.

Yes or no?
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:59 PM   #127
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Was Avanti! the official voice of the Italian Socialist Party while under the editorship of Mussolini?

Yes or no?
This is like saying that Ronald Reagan was a lifelong Democrat, because he started his career as one. Mussolini's ideology was not compatible with the Italian Socialist Party and was expelled by them.

As written by a contemporary:

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"Regarding Mussolini Professor Benito Mussolini,...38, revolutionary socialist, has a police record; elementary school teacher qualified to teach in secondary schools; former first secretary of the Chambers in in Cesena, Forli, and Ravenna; after 1912 editor of the newspaper Avanti! to which he gave a violent suggestive and intransigent orientation. In October 1914, finding himself in opposition to the directorate of the Italian Socialist party because he advocated a kind of active neutrality on the part of Italy in the War of the Nations against the party's tendency of absolute neutrality, he withdrew on the twentieth of that month from the directorate of Avanti! Then on the fifteenth of November [1914], thereafter, he initiated publication of the newspaper Il Popolo d'Italia in which he supported -- in sharp contrast to Avanti! and amid bitter polemics against that newspaper and its chief backers -- the thesis of Italian intervention in the war against the militarism of the Central Empires. For this reason he was accused of moral and political unworthiness and the party thereupon decided to expel him. Thereafter he....undertook a very active campaign in behalf of Italian intervention, participating in demonstrations in the piazzas and writing quite violent articles in Popolo d'Italia....

He was the ideal editor of Avanti! for the Socialists. In that line of work he was greatly esteemed and beloved. Some of his former comrades and admirers still confess that there was no one who understood better how to interpret the spirit of the proletariate and there was no one who did not observe his apostacy with sorrow. This came about not for reasons of self-interest or money. He was a sincere and passionate advocate, first of vigilant and armed neutrality, and later of war; and he did not believe that he was compromising with his personal and political honesty by making use of every means -- no matter where they came from or wherever he might obtain them -- to pay for his newspaper, his program and his line of action. This was his initial line. It is difficult to say to what extent his socialist convictions (which never did he either openly or privately abjure) may have been sacrificed in the course of the indispensable financial deals which were necessary for the continuation of the struggle in which he was engaged... But assuming these modifications did take place... he always wanted to give the appearance of still being a socialist, and he fooled himself into thinking that this was the case."
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:48 PM   #128
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This is like saying that Ronald Reagan was a lifelong Democrat, because he started his career as one. Mussolini's ideology was not compatible with the Italian Socialist Party and was expelled by them.
How refreshing. A fair and reasoned rebuttal. I suppose a politician may change affiliations for many reasons ranging from principled disagreement to opportunism. Reagan saw the Democratic Party moving away from his core believes of individual freedom and limited government as well as a perceived softening of our Cold War stance under Truman. Many Americans from the 60's through the 80's saw this as well and although remaining Democratic would be known as Reagan Democrats.

As Reagan would famously say, "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The party left me." And yes, I cut & pasted that quote.

Mussolini left the Socialist Party to form his own party and shape a more totalitarian society. His motto became (cut & paste alert!)

"Everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing above the state."

Interesting motto. In regards to healthcare which is closer to Mussolini's fascist motto? Single-payer (a form of socialism I think we can agree) or private pay-for-fee?
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:21 PM   #129
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How refreshing. A fair and reasoned rebuttal.
I have no interest in ideological polemics, while philosophy and history are two subjects I am quite familiar with.

I'll address your last point later when I have more time.
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:58 PM   #130
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How refreshing. A fair and reasoned rebuttal.
You've been handed plenty fair and reasoned rebuttals and asked many fair but tough questions, the problem is you didn't respond to those, we get snark and victimhood.


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"Everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing above the state."

Interesting motto. In regards to healthcare which is closer to Mussolini's fascist motto? Single-payer (a form of socialism I think we can agree) or private pay-for-fee?
So I'm going to ask another fair yet many times ignored by you question one more time.

Even if Obama was pushing for a single-payer healthcare, how is that FOR the state? And if your answer is simply control over pricing, guidelines, etc which I'm assuming it's going to be, then why is that control OK in the hands of a few suits?


BTW, many believe your translation is incorrect, they believe it's:

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Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State
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Old 08-19-2009, 05:40 PM   #131
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Actually I wouldn't go this far. The distinction between authoritarianism (which usually better characterizes fascist states) and totalitarianism is an important one; totalitarianism by nature and design destroys civil society completely.
perhaps i should have said, "stalinism and the third reich".

better?
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Old 08-19-2009, 05:58 PM   #132
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Even if Obama was pushing for a single-payer healthcare, how is that FOR the state? And if your answer is simply control over pricing, guidelines, etc which I'm assuming it's going to be, then why is that control OK in the hands of a few suits?
Of course a move from our current system, problematic as it is, to a single-payer system would most certainly result in MORE government control of prices, MORE government mandates to providers, MORE control over our private lives in the form of Nanny-state restrictions, MORE decisions made by politicians rather than individuals and markets or a LARGER, much larger, government bureaucracy? Kinda sounds more like 'for' the state than "against" it.
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BTW, many believe your translation is incorrect, they believe it's:
I'll ring Jonah Goldberg on that and get back with you. Maybe my Italian, it's not so good.
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:37 PM   #133
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Kinda sounds more like 'for' the state than "against" it.
So as long as it's not "against" it's "for"? When our military and senior citizens are given healthcare by the government do we see it as "for the state?" What are those seniors giving the government? What are they doing "for the state"?

Those damn fascist seniors and service men!!!

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MORE decisions made by politicians rather than individuals and markets
BUT THIS ISN'T THE CASE!!! THIS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT TO YOU NUMEROUS TIMES AND EVERYTIME YOU IGNORE IT!!! Individuals and markets are not making the decisions, you are going to have to accept that.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:47 PM   #134
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Individuals and markets are not making the decisions, you are going to have to accept that.
I do accept that. Which is why I support putting decision making back in the hands of individuals by decreasing the number of mandates and rewriting the tax code and putting market forces back into pricing by removing third-party payers for routine care.

That's the type of reform I support and just the type of reform this legislation ignores. That's the lype of reform that will lower prices and increase accessibility without adding to the national debt.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:14 PM   #135
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I do accept that. Which is why I support putting decision making back in the hands of individuals by decreasing the number of mandates and rewriting the tax code and putting market forces back into pricing by removing third-party payers for routine care.

That's the type of reform I support and just the type of reform this legislation ignores. That's the lype of reform that will lower prices and increase accessibility without adding to the national debt.
You mentioned removing third-party players, by that you mean the insurance companies? Because if we still have to work through them to get health care coverage, I imagine that decreasing the number of mandates would only empower the insurance companies further to deny coverage, right?

Also could you explain more about rewriting the tax code?
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