Margaret Thatcher and the new conservatism (from 1975) - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

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Old 04-09-2013, 03:28 AM   #91
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here's an interesting article:

Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i couldn't begin to pretend to know or understand Thatcher's influence on the UK or the world as a whole. but i will say that i find the UK a vibrant, fascinating place with one of the world's truly great cities at it's core, and i can't help but think that she had at least something to do with the country's seemingly successful post-war, post-Empire realignment/reassessment.

surely she can't be all bad?
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I'm having this problem too. Not knowing much about her, and still not understanding what conservatism and socialism really mean despite studying them for a semester this year, it's hard to get a gauge. The left are painting her as an evil witch, and the right are lauding her as one of the world's greatest leaders.
Irvine511 and cobl, here are a few reasons, taken from the article in the above link (the Falklands war was another of her terrible and brutal mistakes which isn't mentioned below):

Quote:
Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted – and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:05 AM   #92
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Whoa, that Socialist Worker cover is appalling.
In what way? It seems pretty fair to me, not to mention the many, many workers who suffered under her rule.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:26 AM   #93
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Nm
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:18 AM   #94
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It's a little odd to see some of the same people who decried those rejoicing at Osama's death taking great delight in Thatcher's death.
I agree. It sounds somewhat hypocritical.

Like here in America, right wingers were angry as hell when liberals bashed Reagan when he died. But guaranteed when Clinton or Obama pass away, conservatives will be dancing in the streets.

Basically, people aren't saying "respect the dead" here. They're asking everyone to feel the same way they do and anything not like theirs is invalid.

As I said, I think Thatcher should be given credit for being a powerful woman in a man's arena. She may not have done things that helped the world much, but she was tough and strong enough to get and stay where she was. Give credit when due?

But hey, I'm not British so I have no idea what it was like living under and after her premiership (is that what its called?).
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:56 AM   #95
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It's a little odd to see some of the same people who decried those rejoicing at Osama's death taking great delight in Thatcher's death.
who are you aiming that at cobl?

i'm not "taking great delight" in her death, more a weird sense of relief, of an oppression lifted - hard to explain really, but find it dishonest to shed fake tears for the old tyrant and jump on the bandwaggon eulogising her - i criticised her in life and her death doesn't change history...

and remember - Bin Laden was murdered - whether that was a good or bad thing, the celebratory aspect didn't sit well with me... i think the two situations are completely different, but hey, you can think it's all the same if you like
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #96
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As I said, I think Thatcher should be given credit for being a powerful woman in a man's arena.
i don't think anyone's denying that Pearl, heck, even i acknowledged that a couple of pages back...
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:15 PM   #97
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i don't think anyone's denying that Pearl, heck, even i acknowledged that a couple of pages back...

I didn't say anyone was and my comment was not directed at anyone in particular; it was a general comment.
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:21 PM   #98
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I didn't say anyone was and my comment was not directed at anyone in particular; it was a general comment.
ok, well, she has always been given credit for that particular achievement, of being a strong woman in a man's world, that's why i found your comment a bit odd... however, she certainly was not a feminist icon...
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:18 PM   #99
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It's a little odd to see some of the same people who decried those rejoicing at Osama's death taking great delight in Thatcher's death.
There is the absolute thinnest line separating what we think of as Conservatism and Liberalism in the West. In situations like these, it's blatantly obvious that both sides are full of the exact same type of shitty human beings who rejoice in bad things happening to anyone who doesn't agree with them.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:27 PM   #100
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How influential could she have been in the year 2013 anyway? I mean, I don't live in Britain, so maybe I'm missing something, but she hasn't been a member of parliament in over 20 years. She still had a voice, but her death doesn't stop any orders from being made. It doesn't directly benefit the world in any meaningful way really, so I see no reason to feel upbeat about her death.

If the ideology she left behind died, that would be cool.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:33 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
I'm having this problem too. Not knowing much about her, and still not understanding what conservatism and socialism really mean despite studying them for a semester this year, it's hard to get a gauge. The left are painting her as an evil witch, and the right are lauding her as one of the world's greatest leaders.
Conservatives are trying to conserve what they think works well. The socialists want to make a better world and create better conditions. The error conservatives make is when they conserve things they shouldn't conserve and the error the socialists make is when they create programs that don't work and make things worse despite positive intentions. They both do a tug of war and the public has to decide for themselves whether they like one policy or another. As policies get adopted people tend to keep them if they like them. So there are narratives on both sides. There are also special interests both sides. Business types and managers won't criticize their side fairly and the same for government workers and unionized workers. Both sides will go for their self-interests all the way. The real achievements that Thatcher and Reagan will be remembered for is dealing a blow against communism which when it fell freed millions of people. They will also be remembered for supporting policies that reduced stagflation (Unemployment and inflation happening at the same time). Certainly Thatcher wasn't perfect on all fronts and these types didn't eliminate all social programs so those on the left who ushered in a welfare state have a victory in that conservatives won't want to repeal all programs.

So the challenge still stands: What are you trying to conserve and if you are trying to make the world better are the programs you proposing actually going to work? It's going to keep going like this ad infinitum.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:47 PM   #102
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The real achievements that Thatcher and Reagan will be remembered for is dealing a blow against communism which when it fell freed millions of people.
Uh, no. How could they end something that wasn't there in the first place?
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:44 PM   #103
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many Eastern Europeans recognize her contributions

Bulgarian PM: Thatcher Battled for Eastern Europe's Freedom - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:46 PM   #104
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Uh, no. How could they end something that wasn't there in the first place?
It was considered to be communism by many.

I think you should start a thread about communism and how you see it. You bring it up a lot, so I'm curious about your beliefs - maybe others are too.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:55 PM   #105
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It was considered to be communism by many.

I think you should start a thread about communism and how you see it. You bring it up a lot, so I'm curious about your beliefs - maybe others are too.
Be careful what you wish for...
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