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Old 12-05-2013, 05:25 PM   #751
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that's impressive.
Thanks. I'm still hypocrite though. I haven't thrown out all my leather shoes and belts...but it's a move in the right direction.

I think I posted about my switch to veganism a few months ago. I saw some of those videos on youtube - that was enough.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:35 PM   #752
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I remember reading about your switch.

What are your views on the death penalty? Just wondering whether you take an absolute life stance (like the RC Church).
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:38 PM   #753
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At least during the last line of discussion - we've moved the abortion debate into the arena it belongs (bioethics) and away from the arena it does not belong (feminism).
I don't think it's necessarily that black and white. But let's say for the sake of argument that it is.

The issue is that a great many (not all, but many, probably most) strong opponents of abortion generally also support policies that limit access to contraception, limit sex ed in schools, limit funding to contraception centres, promote pharmacists refusing to give out birth control and/or Plan B medications, don't think employers should pay for birth control and on and on. To me, when they take these positions, abortion must then be seen as a woman's issue since the restrictions they are talking about all in the end contribute to more and more abortions. Does that make sense to you?
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:58 PM   #754
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I don't think it's necessarily that black and white. But let's say for the sake of argument that it is.

The issue is that a great many (not all, but many, probably most) strong opponents of abortion generally also support policies that limit access to contraception, limit sex ed in schools, limit funding to contraception centres, promote pharmacists refusing to give out birth control and/or Plan B medications, don't think employers should pay for birth control and on and on. To me, when they take these positions, abortion must then be seen as a woman's issue since the restrictions they are talking about all in the end contribute to more and more abortions. Does that make sense to you?
Let's not forget the idea that miscarriages must be investigated or the law that all women seeking an abortion must undergo a sonogram. These reasons take a woman's right to choose to a whole new level.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:17 PM   #755
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I remember reading about your switch.

What are your views on the death penalty? Just wondering whether you take an absolute life stance (like the RC Church).
I used to support the death penalty for those guilty of murder. Now, in theory, I think that with our new understanding of brain chemistry - the chance of "healing" exists - or will soon exist.

That being said - if one of my children were murdered, I would terminate the killer if I had the chance. It wouldn't be the "right" thing to do, but I think that I would be so emotionally hijacked, it wouldn't matter. I would also immediately turn myself in and serve my sentence.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:26 PM   #756
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I don't think it's necessarily that black and white. But let's say for the sake of argument that it is.

The issue is that a great many (not all, but many, probably most) strong opponents of abortion generally also support policies that limit access to contraception, limit sex ed in schools, limit funding to contraception centres, promote pharmacists refusing to give out birth control and/or Plan B medications, don't think employers should pay for birth control and on and on. To me, when they take these positions, abortion must then be seen as a woman's issue since the restrictions they are talking about all in the end contribute to more and more abortions. Does that make sense to you?
I'm trying to understand - but I'm still confused. Is it not true that the same people that oppose contraception and sex education, do so for both males and females?

For my own clarification - are you suggesting that pregnancy is the result of a lack of contraception and understanding that sexual intercourse may lead to an unwanted pregnancy?
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:39 PM   #757
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I'm trying to understand - but I'm still confused. Is it not true that the same people that oppose contraception and sex education, do so for both males and females?

For my own clarification - are you suggesting that pregnancy is the result of a lack of contraception and understanding that sexual intercourse may lead to an unwanted pregnancy?
Yes, it affects both men and women.

But the lack of access to education and birth control has a far greater impact on women than it does on men. Men do not become pregnant. Men can impregnate a woman and walk away. Sometimes they'll be held financially responsible (to the extent that they can provide which is often nothing), many times they won't. The single mother is then left with the burden of raising a child on often a low income, without significant education, and so the cycle of poverty begins.

Plus, birth control like the pill or IUD is far more effective than condoms, which is the only form a man is able to provide on his end.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:50 PM   #758
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Yes, it affects both men and women.

But the lack of access to education and birth control has a far greater impact on women than it does on men. Men do not become pregnant. Men can impregnate a woman and walk away. Sometimes they'll be held financially responsible (to the extent that they can provide which is often nothing), many times they won't. The single mother is then left with the burden of raising a child on often a low income, without significant education, and so the cycle of poverty begins.

Plus, birth control like the pill or IUD is far more effective than condoms, which is the only form a man is able to provide on his end.
I will concede these points about the lack of available contraception perhaps being an Equal Rights issue. However, it still seems true that women knowingly engage in sex without protection, and they know this increases the chances of pregnancy. And as you said - men don't get pregnant - so it seems that the ultimate/final line in the sand responsibility regarding pregnancy lands on the woman. Because you can't have it both ways. You can't say that only women have the right in determining the life/death of the unborn child, yet somehow both genders share in the responsibility of the pregnancy in the first place.

The feminists seem to claim that women have absolute control of their body. If this is true, this means they also have absolute control over the sexual activities of that body. Sexual activity may result in pregnancy. Therefore, women have absolute control of when they get pregnant.

Since women have absolute control of when they get pregnant, it should be of no surprise when another human organism starts forming in their womb sometime after sexual intercourse. Science seems to indicate, this human organism is in fact, a human life, and as such - has rights. And one of those rights - is the right to life. This right to life supersedes any inconvenience to the mother - who voluntarily brought the life into existence by her decision to have sexual intercourse.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:03 PM   #759
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I will concede these points about the lack of available contraception perhaps being an Equal Rights issue. However, it still seems true that women knowingly engage in sex without protection, and they know this increases the chances of pregnancy. And as you said - men don't get pregnant - so it seems that the ultimate/final line in the sand responsibility regarding pregnancy lands on the woman. Because you can't have it both ways. You can't say that only women have the right in determining the life/death of the unborn child, yet somehow both genders share in the responsibility of the pregnancy in the first place.

The feminists seem to claim that women have absolute control of their body. If this is true, this means they also have absolute control over the sexual activities of that body. Sexual activity may result in pregnancy. Therefore, women have absolute control of when they get pregnant.

Since women have absolute control of when they get pregnant, it should be of no surprise when another human organism starts forming in their womb sometime after sexual intercourse. Science seems to indicate, this human organism is in fact, a human life, and as such - has rights. And one of those rights - is the right to life. This right to life supersedes any inconvenience to the mother - who voluntarily brought the life into existence by her decision to have sexual intercourse.
I know this is an argument that will never end, but I just have to speak up.

I really hope you realize that contraception is not 100% effective. Yeah, there are some women who don't use contraception during sex and that isn't wise of them if they don't want to get pregnant. But to say we have absolute control over our bodies and what happens to it is completely false.

When feminists "seem" to claim that we have absolute control over our bodies, it simply means no one, especially a man, has dominion over our bodies. That is what feminists declare. We have been treated like property for centuries, with men controlling our bodies for us, and we don't want that anymore. That is what we are fighting for.

Men don't know what it is like to be a woman. They never will because they don't have the same bodies. So for men to tell us what to do with our bodies, how we should treat it and what we do have control over is completely wrong, and even foolish.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:26 PM   #760
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This right to life supersedes any inconvenience to the mother - who voluntarily brought the life into existence by her decision to have sexual intercourse.


this attitude is why it's a feminist issue. as if women get abortions because they don't want to be inconvenienced.

it's so reductive about human sexuality and so dehumanizing to women and so excuses men from anything and so enables them to divide women up into virgins and sluts.

if you could get pregnant, you'd feel much differently.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:30 PM   #761
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"Inconvenience" is either a poor choice of word or a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:56 PM   #762
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this attitude is why it's a feminist issue. as if women get abortions because they don't want to be inconvenienced.

it's so reductive about human sexuality and so dehumanizing to women and so excuses men from anything and so enables them to divide women up into virgins and sluts.

if you could get pregnant, you'd feel much differently.
You seem to be arguing that men DO have a shared responsibility in the pregnancy - and if they share in the responsibility, they also share in the consequence. And if they share in the consequence, doesn't that mean that men should have an equal voice in whether or not the child is born or aborted?

If you are stating that only a mother has a consequence, then only the mother has the responsibility. Again - you can't have it both ways.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:02 AM   #763
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"Inconvenience" is either a poor choice of word or a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue.
Perhaps - it was a summary of the phrasing used by other posters (such as unwanted, mother and child not on the same page, not financially ready...etc).
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:18 AM   #764
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I really hope you realize that contraception is not 100% effective. Yeah, there are some women who don't use contraception during sex and that isn't wise of them if they don't want to get pregnant. But to say we have absolute control over our bodies and what happens to it is completely false.
There is only one 100% biologically effective way not to get pregnant. Everything else contains various degrees of risk.

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When feminists "seem" to claim that we have absolute control over our bodies, it simply means no one, especially a man, has dominion over our bodies.
Fair enough. I agree with you since I accept the premise that no human life should have dominion over another human life.

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That is what feminists declare. We have been treated like property for centuries, with men controlling our bodies for us, and we don't want that anymore.
I had nothing to do with how women were treated in the past. I can't be held accountable for the actions of people that have been dead for hundreds of years.

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That is what we are fighting for.
You already have it in most Western countries. It is illegal to have dominion over a woman's body. You've won.

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Men don't know what it is like to be a woman.
well, some "men" probably do, but I get your point.

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They never will because they don't have the same bodies.
And you will never understand what it's like to have a male body - that seems irrelevant.

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So for men to tell us what to do with our bodies, how we should treat it and what we do have control over is completely wrong, and even foolish.
You can do whatever you want to your own body. However, you do not have the right to exercise dominion over another human life - whether that life is in a womb, incubator, or kindergarten class.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:38 AM   #765
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There is only one 100% biologically effective way not to get pregnant. Everything else contains various degrees of risk.
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean a fetus' rights matters much more than what the mother goes through.

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Fair enough. I agree with you since I accept the premise that no human life should have dominion of another human life.
Then please don't tell me what I should do with my body. You're not God, a doctor, or the man I'm in a relationship with.

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I had nothing to do with how women were treated in the past. I can't be held accountable for the actions of people that have been dead for hundreds of years.
No, AEON. I was explaining to you what it means to be a woman, what's on our minds and what we are trying to overcome. Where did you get the idea that I was blaming you for anything? I'm confused.

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You already have it in most Western countries. It is illegal to have dominion over a woman's body. You've won.
And conservatives are still fighting to overturn that. Look at some of the GOP Congressional candidates last year. Doesn't matter if they lost their elections. The fact that there are still men today trying every way possible to control women's bodies is frightening for a lot of women.

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well, some "men" probably do, but I get your point.
"Men"? What, those men aren't real men because they have more empathy for women? That's what it sounds like you are saying.

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And you will never understand what it's like to have a male body - that seems irrelevant.
And with that, it is clear that this is a losing battle for you. Your answers seem desperate. In fact, they sound sexist, and reek of fear of women.

Are you against abortion or are you against a woman owning her body? It is either or.

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You can do whatever you want to your own body. However, you do not have the right to exercise dominion over another human life - whether that life is in a womb, incubator, or kindergarten class.
Uhm, you just said earlier that it is illegal to own a woman's body. Abortion is legal.
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