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Old 12-04-2013, 01:56 PM   #676
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Anyway isn't this people being crappy to people who support an institution that wants to be crappy to women's rights? Not an expert on Argentina but I imagine it's not too dissimilar to how the Catholic Church has affected things in Ireland, which wasn't really good.
Yeah but like I said, that sort of thing doesn't solve problems
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Old 12-04-2013, 02:44 PM   #677
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I just found your phrasing (heroes) a little unfair and fighty.
Yes, it was meant to be sarcastic.

I do think there are many women out there, especially on the university campuses, that certainly use "bullying" tactics - just not as extreme as we see here in this video. (shouting, putting down even the hint of a dissenting view in the classrooms, over emotionalism)

I'm still not 100% percent clear how abortion equals woman's rights. Do men have zero say during a pregnancy? Aren't men also responsible (legally enforced in most countries) for the life of the child, even if the child is unwanted? How is it possible they can't have a say in the matter?

I'm all for woman equality - but I'm also anti-abortion (under most circumstances).
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Old 12-04-2013, 02:44 PM   #678
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Yeah but like I said, that sort of thing doesn't solve problems
Very true.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:00 PM   #679
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Yes, it was meant to be sarcastic. I do think there are many women out there, especially on the university campuses, that certainly use "bullying" tactics - just not as extreme as we see here in this video. (shouting, putting down even the hint of a dissenting view in the classrooms, over emotionalism) I'm still not 100% percent clear how abortion equals woman's rights. Do men have zero say during a pregnancy? Aren't men also responsible (legally enforced in most countries) for the life of the child, even if the child is unwanted? How is it possible they can't have a say in the matter? I'm all for woman equality - but I'm also anti-abortion (under most circumstances).
A lot of times men side with their wives and girlfriends when abortion is decided in the case of an unwanted pregnancy. I don't know the exact statistics but I would think women forgoing abortion while telling the father to go screw themselves in a minority. I don't anyone to make a decision for me regarding pregnancy, unless it's a doctor telling it is a matter of life and death. I especially don't want someone telling me to carry my rapist's baby. It's a decision between me, the father (if the sex was consensual) my doctor and my God - not some stranger.

I get the sense that you feel threatened by any woman asking for equality and respect. Maybe that's not true, but if so, why?
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:45 PM   #680
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I'm still not 100% percent clear how abortion equals woman's rights. Do men have zero say during a pregnancy? Aren't men also responsible (legally enforced in most countries) for the life of the child, even if the child is unwanted? How is it possible they can't have a say in the matter?


if women cannot control when they do and do not get pregnant, there can be no true equality since it's something that can never happen to a man. also, if a women should chose to end a pregnancy, it's her exercising full control over her body, she shouldn't haven't to seek permission from a man.
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:08 PM   #681
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if women cannot control when they do and do not get pregnant, there can be no true equality since it's something that can never happen to a man. also, if a women should chose to end a pregnancy, it's her exercising full control over her body, she shouldn't haven't to seek permission from a man.
Agreed. The woman is the one carrying the baby, undergoing heavy mental and hormonal changes, and in the end the one to nurse the baby. Sure the man helps and everything, but if we're talking unwanted pregnancy, I don't see why, if the mother does not want the child, she should ask permission. It's her body after all.
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:38 PM   #682
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if women cannot control when they do and do not get pregnant, there can be no true equality since it's something that can never happen to a man. also, if a women should chose to end a pregnancy, it's her exercising full control over her body, she shouldn't haven't to seek permission from a man.
....or a woman who labels her as a slut simply for being pregnant before marriage.
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:39 PM   #683
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Agreed. The woman is the one carrying the baby, undergoing heavy mental and hormonal changes, and in the end the one to nurse the baby. Sure the man helps and everything, but if we're talking unwanted pregnancy, I don't see why, if the mother does not want the child, she should ask permission. It's her body after all.
This seems more like an argument for the right to have an abortion, and not about equality. I still do not see how the ability to have a legal abortion makes a woman equal to a man simply because males can't get pregnant. The inability to men to get pregnant makes us different, but not unequal. In fact, it could probably be argued that the ability to get pregnant makes women superior.

It seems you would need to show data like unequal pay for the same job or demonstrate the lack of promotion despite being more qualified to prove a woman is being treated unequally to men. And for the most part - these arguments are supported by hard evidence even though the world is slowly closing these gaps every year.

Having the right to terminate a life is not in the same discussion. If it was - then we would have to throw in a Muslim father's "right" to conduct honor killings to preserve his family's standing in the community. Would you say this is a matter of male/female inequality or a matter of murder?

The men and women that oppose abortion are standing up for the right of the growing child (from their perspective). This has little to do with the individual legal rights of a woman.

I think we can agree that there are physical/hormonal differences between men and women. I think we can also agree that a pregnancy takes place in a woman's body (at least for the next few decades) and it's a tough row to hoe. But I don't agree that terminating a pregnancy is matter of equality/non-equality - it is a matter of murder/non-murder.
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:44 PM   #684
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.

I get the sense that you feel threatened by any woman asking for equality and respect.

Whoa - where did that come from? I'm married to woman that has a career and I certainly want her treated with equality and respect. I want the same for my stepdaughter. I also try my best to treat everyone with equality and respect.

However, I don't think that men are being treated with equality and respect by many feminists - especially the ones in this video.
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:47 PM   #685
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if women cannot control when they do and do not get pregnant, there can be no true equality
Unless there is force - a woman has absolute control of this event at all times (with the exception of Mary about 33 BC).

It's one of the more obvious cause and effect behaviors in the animal kingdom.
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:55 PM   #686
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Unless there is force - a woman has absolute control of this event at all times (with the exception of Mary about 33 BC).

It's one of the more obvious cause and effect behaviors in the animal kingdom.


so it's up to the woman not to get pregnant?
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:12 PM   #687
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so it's up to the woman not to get pregnant?
You said...

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if women cannot control when they do and do not get pregnant, there can be no true equality
And I'm saying that legally, they DO control when they do and do not get pregnant.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:03 AM   #688
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And legal abortion is part of maintaining that control.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:32 AM   #689
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And legal abortion is part of maintaining that control.
until birth?
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:31 AM   #690
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This seems more like an argument for the right to have an abortion, and not about equality. I still do not see how the ability to have a legal abortion makes a woman equal to a man simply because males can't get pregnant. The inability to men to get pregnant makes us different, but not unequal. In fact, it could probably be argued that the ability to get pregnant makes women superior.

It seems you would need to show data like unequal pay for the same job or demonstrate the lack of promotion despite being more qualified to prove a woman is being treated unequally to men. And for the most part - these arguments are supported by hard evidence even though the world is slowly closing these gaps every year.

Having the right to terminate a life is not in the same discussion. If it was - then we would have to throw in a Muslim father's "right" to conduct honor killings to preserve his family's standing in the community. Would you say this is a matter of male/female inequality or a matter of murder?

The men and women that oppose abortion are standing up for the right of the growing child (from their perspective). This has little to do with the individual legal rights of a woman.

I think we can agree that there are physical/hormonal differences between men and women. I think we can also agree that a pregnancy takes place in a woman's body (at least for the next few decades) and it's a tough row to hoe. But I don't agree that terminating a pregnancy is matter of equality/non-equality - it is a matter of murder/non-murder.
That's not really the argument I was trying to make. I'll try to explain it differently.

The whole thing about gender equality I find ridiculous anyway, as we are biologically not equal. Google translate translate the word I'm looking for as equivalence, but I don't think that's it. What I mean is that we're not equal, but deserve equal, fair treatment. The whole quota with women at top functions, why? For the sake of having women there? No. The person most capable should be at the top, regardless of gender.

Abortion to me has nothing to do with this equality issue, simply because, as you said, men don't get pregnant. It is a private matter between a couple, or in the case of unwanted pregnancy of the woman. I do not see why the government should need to decide what happens to that woman and/or the pregnancy. As the consequences have such a grand impact on the woman's life, it should be her decision and hers alone.

What would your arguments be for making this ability superior? Because as far as I'm aware it is generally considered something that makes women weaker. Just as having a period each month. While men have none of these issues, they have an 'advantage' over us, or so to say. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I think that is the general consensus, coming from the times where women were considered less anyway. It's about time these views get updated to the 21st century.

I do not want to turn this into a great abortion discussion, as I still think it's a different matter altogether, but if we're going to consider honour killing a matter of equality? No. It is not. It is murder. Religion is also something I consider personal and I do not see why a person's connection or belief in God should be a reason for them to avoid our justice system. Killing in the name of God is still killing.

Abortion has nothing to do with this. It does not depend on beliefs and it is not murder. It's a rational decision made by weighing pros and cons. And IMO that decision belongs to the person actually having to undergo the procedure. The pregnant woman. We don't know her situation, we do not have to live with the consequences, whille she does. Who the hell gave us the right to decide what she has to do? Sounds pretty 18th century to me!

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You said...



And I'm saying that legally, they DO control when they do and do not get pregnant.
What's your view on abortion after a rape pregnancy then?

Besides that, birth control is never 100% safe. So there is always a chance. Then there's the drug-drug interaction with contraception that prevents most women on anti depressants to take it. There are a lot of different reasons that can cause pregnancy, and it is not always just the two people involved lazying and not using protection.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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