Is Feminism Still Relevant? - Page 35 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-20-2013, 05:03 PM   #511
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
But let's say I'm not unintentionally sexist since there is no evidence in my life to suggest I am. I'm merely a 'beneficiary'. How does it help the situation at all to continually point out that I'm a beneficiary? How do you cope with being a beneficiary of being white? Of being straight? Of living in the USA? Of not being born into poverty? Of not being born with any outward mental deficiencies? Of being born without any physical handicaps? Do these things make you an unintentional racist, homophobe, xenophobe, classist, ableist? Or are you just an individual making your way through a world filled with isms in which you're in no way promoting or perpetuating?
well said.
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 05:51 PM   #512
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 11:25 AM
Button Poetry First Readings - Dylan Garity - "Friend Zone" - YouTube
__________________

__________________
AliEnvy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 06:17 PM   #513
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 06:25 AM
So I Married An Axe Murderer: The Woman Woman Poem (Good Quality) - YouTube
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 06:27 PM   #514
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,095
Local Time: 07:25 AM
You guys are hilarious. I specifically said, a woman who is considering spending time alone with a man in a non public space considers whether he is safe or not.Not every man she's ever met.


I do think you should ask your girl friends about it. Hey babe, when you first thought about going out with a guy, did you wonder if he was safe? Did you have a creep alarm that went off if you thought the guy might be a predator? Ask your mom, your sisters and the women you work with, too. Chances are the answer will be "Yes, I thought about it. Usually I got a feeling about a guy right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him. I didn't worry much if we had a mutual friend who said he was fine." It's just the way it works. All people tend to read novel situations as more dangerous than familiar ones, even if the familiar one is measurably more dangerous.
__________________
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 06:40 PM   #515
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,694
Local Time: 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
You guys are hilarious.
This is deflection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
I do think you should ask your girl friends about it. Hey babe, when you first thought about going out with a guy, did you wonder if he was safe? Did you have a creep alarm that went off if you thought the guy might be a predator? Ask your mom, your sisters and the women you work with, too. Chances are the answer will be "Yes, I thought about it. Usually I got a feeling about a guy right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him. I didn't worry much if we had a mutual friend who said he was fine." It's just the way it works. All people tend to read novel situations as more dangerous than familiar ones, even if the familiar one is measurably more dangerous.
And this is changing your tone. HUMANS have an internal alarm that gives "a feeling about a guy(or girl) right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him". That is not how you originally framed it.
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 06:42 PM   #516
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 06:25 AM
It seems like you might be backing away from the severity of the original statement though. Do I think that everyone makes a superficial call on someone's personality when they first meet them? Yes. Do I think that first impressions count toward if you spend any time with an individual? Yes. But, there's a huge difference between "this guy seems rapey" and "Checklist: Does this guy seem rapey? Nope"
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 06:43 PM   #517
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
This is deflection.


And this is changing your tone. HUMANS have an internal alarm that gives "a feeling about a guy(or girl) right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him". That is not how you originally framed it.
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 06:44 PM   #518
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
I specifically said, a woman who is considering spending time alone with a man in a non public space considers whether he is safe or not.Not every man she's ever met.
This doesn't change anything for my side of the argument
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 06:47 PM   #519
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 06:25 AM
Just texted my girlfriend
"At any point when we first started seeing each other, did it ever cross your mind that I might rape you?"

Her response:
"absolutely not. To say that every girl always thinks that is retarded"
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 08:07 PM   #520
Blue Crack Distributor
 
bono_212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 81,105
Local Time: 03:25 AM
Never for a second.
__________________
bono_212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 09:15 PM   #521
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,095
Local Time: 07:25 AM
Here's my original statement:

Quote:
(As a quick example, most men have never worried that a woman they'd like to get to know may rape them, but every woman has to.)
Do women, when they are doing that "good feeling/bad feeling" check in about a new person, include somewhere in it their sense of whether a man sexually safe? I think they do. I think if you had a real conversation with a woman instead of a text exchange, I think you'd hear some variation of affirmative. The answer I don't think you'd hear is, "No. I always assume that every man is sexually safe and I never think twice about putting myself alone with a man I don't know unless I have a concrete reason to believe he isn't safe."

But the contentious statement was really a quick example of male privilege- it's one of many things women have to worry about and men do not. Has any man on this thread ever assessed whether a woman who's caught his eye may be a rapist? You guys were all very quick to tell me what women think, but all avoided the actual point of my post.

You also haven't really engaged with Pearl about the main point of her article, and ignored her when she posted this
Quote:
Since women are usually raped by men that they know, rather than strangers, it is something that goes through our heads when meeting a guy, even for a millisecond. It's something we are conditioned with, just like being careful on what to wear when you're alone at night.
So I'll say it again.
Quote:
The most common type of sexist behavior among men who sympathize with feminism is failing to really hear what women are saying. To say, "that's not the way it is, your experience or your interpretation of it is invalid. Let me tell you how it really is and what feminism really needs to do, and how to fix your problems. " The hardest thing for any privileged group to do is be quiet and just listen to what the Other has to say.
__________________
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 10:04 PM   #522
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
Here's my original statement:
Your original statement is exactly what we were responding to


Quote:
Do women, when they are doing that "good feeling/bad feeling" check in about a new person, include somewhere in it their sense of whether a man sexually safe? I think they do.
Apparently not specifically. And not consciously. And no differently from the way a man makes a judgement call on a person's first impression

Quote:
I think if you had a real conversation with a woman instead of a text exchange, I think you'd hear some variation of affirmative.
Ya, I've had one or two real conversations with my girlfriend that weren't over text.
Your hypothesis was proven wrong with the very first girl I asked (and from the next girl to respond in this thread). I can ask more if you like. My girlfriend also added:
"I don't like walking at home at night because I don't want to get mugged. I only think about rape because everyone is always talking about it"

and

"Comments like that give feminists a bad name"
(she considers herself a feminist)


Quote:
The answer I don't think you'd hear is, "No. I always assume that every man is sexually safe and I never think twice about putting myself alone with a man I don't know unless I have a concrete reason to believe he isn't safe."
You're getting further and further away from your original comment in an effort to save face.

Quote:
But the contentious statement was really a quick example of male privilege- it's one of many things women have to worry about and men do not. Has any man on this thread ever assessed whether a woman who's caught his eye may be a rapist?
Nope, I never have to worry about getting raped by a woman. I also don't worry about getting jumped and beaten up by a woman. Or getting mugged by a woman. What does this prove?

Quote:
You guys were all very quick to tell me what women think, but all avoided the actual point of my post.
Ironically it was you who were quick to tell all women what they think. You've also done a lot of telling men what to think.


We've already addressed Pearl's comment. We've been addressing it for several posts. Repeating your post changes nothing
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 10:07 PM   #523
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:25 AM
Quote:
failing to really hear what women are saying.
My wife does say to me a lot. But I'm afraid any solution to solve the "communication gap" quickly devolves into the basic assumption that men are apes that simply desire to fix shit.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 10:49 PM   #524
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,095
Local Time: 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post

Ya, I've had one or two real conversations with my girlfriend that weren't over text.
Sorry, you said you asked your GF this question in a text. I think an in person conversation about how she sizes up new aquaintances would likely be more nuanced.



Quote:
Nope, I never have to worry about getting raped by a woman. I also don't worry about getting jumped and beaten up by a woman. Or getting mugged by a woman. What does this prove?
You are always able to initiate an intimate relationship with the expectation that your potential partner will be physically and sexually safe for you. That's an example of male privilege, the subject Pearl's article.



Somebody made a list of other examples here The Male Privilege Checklist | Alas, a Blog with a bunch of others, a bunch of which are good and some of which are lamer. There's a few good ones in a row right off.

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.


Again, the list is not perfect but it is food for thought. These are examples of ways that men benefit from a sexist culture without awareness or intention. As Pearl's article noted, becoming aware of them is uncomfortable. "Anger is an entirely appropriate response to learning that you’re implicated in a system that oppresses women – but the solution isn’t to direct that anger back at women. The solution isn’t to shut down debate by accusing us of “reverse sexism”, as if that will somehow balance out the problem and stop you feeling so uncomfortable."
__________________
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2013, 10:57 PM   #525
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,498
Local Time: 06:25 AM
FWIW, where I work, it's heavily female dominated, and I see examples of reverse sexism. I see women who think the men under them are dumb, don't follow through, aren't organized, and can't be trusted to complete more than one task at once. In addition, if there is any conflict with a male subordinate, it's because "he has a problem working for women/having a woman tell him what to do."

It's not because she happens to be a shitty boss, it must be because it's the man who has the sexism problem. It's not her he had a problem with, it's women in general.

I expect to see more of this in the future.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com