Ireland on the brink (?) - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-23-2010, 04:22 PM   #106
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 06:08 PM
Forget Ireland, we got real problems here

Quote:
After several delays, Bono has admitted that bringing the $60 million 'Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark' musical to Broadway has been something of a nightmare.
With this Sunday marking the first preview performance of the show, U2's singer is calling the undertaking "harder than we ever thought."
__________________

__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2010, 05:07 PM   #107
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 03:08 AM
if it makes you feel any better, $60 million wouldn't make a blinding bit of difference for Ireland

BBC News - Irish leader Brian Cowen rejects calls for early budget
__________________

__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 02:46 PM   #108
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 03:08 AM
Quote:
Imagine that Yasser Arafat had succeeded in ending Israeli occupation and establishing a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Now imagine that 10 or 15 years later, new Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, agreed to hand over control of his country's budget to the IMF so his people's future would be controlled by outsiders. Do you think Palestinians would praise Abbas as a patriot or denounce him as a traitor?

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen is Mahmoud Abbas. He's caved in to the demands of foreign capital and transferred control over the nation's budget to the EU and the IMF. Here's an excerpt from a November 24, article in Reuters:

"Ireland's teetering government will announce plans on Wednesday to cut welfare spending sharply and raise taxes to help pay for the country's catastrophic banking crisis and meet the terms of an international bailout.

The four-year plan to save 15 billion euros is a condition for an EU/IMF rescue under negotiation for a country long feted as a model of economic development that has become the latest casualty in the euro zone's emergency ward.

Prime Minister Brian Cowen told parliament no final figure had been agreed for financial assistance, "but an amount of the order of 85 billion (euros) has been discussed.

The finance ministry said the austerity plan would be published at 1400 GMT and posted on the official government website." (Reuters)

This is a black day for Ireland. The Irish people will now face a decade or more of grinding poverty and depression thanks to their venal leaders. As soon as the ink dries on the IMF loans, the second occupation of Ireland will begin, only this time there won't be armored cars and Paramilitaries in fatigues, but nerdy-looking bureaucrats trained in the art of spreading misery. In fact, the loans haven't even been signed yet, and already IMF officials are urging the government to cut jobless benefits and the minimum wage. They're literally champing at the bit. They just can't wait to get their hands on the budget and start slashing away.

And don't believe the hype about European unity or saving Ireland. My ass. This is about bailing out the banks. The bondholders get a free ride while workers get kicked to the curb. Here's a clip from the Financial Times that spells it out in black and white:

"According to data compiled by the Bank of International Settlements, the three largest creditors to the Irish economy at the end of June...were Germany to the tune of €109bn, the UK at €100bn and France at €40bn. These sums amount to 2 per cent of France’s gross domestic product, 4.5 per cent of Germany’s GDP, and 7 per cent of British GDP."

See? Another bank bailout. Ireland is being asked to cut to social services, slash wages, renegotiate contracts, and dismantle the welfare state so that undercapitalized banks in France and Germany can get their pound of flesh. But, why? They're the ones who bought the bonds. No one put a gun to their head. They knew they could lose money if Irish banks went south. That's the risk they took. "You pays your money, and you takes your chances." Right? That's how capitalism works.

Not any more, it doesn't. Not while Cowen's in charge, at least. The Irish PM has decided to bail them out; make all the bondholders "whole again." But who made Cowen God? Who gave Cowen the right to hand over his country to the IMF?

No one. Cowen is a rogue agent kowtowing to international capital. After he finishes his work in Ireland, he'll probably join globalist Tony Blair on the French Riviera for a little hobnobbing with the tuxedo crowd.

It's revealing to watch the way Cowen works, as though the interests of foreign bankers mean more to him than those of his own people. For example, the Green Party withdrew from the government last night calling for new elections, but even though the government is in a shambles, the slippery Taoiseach wants to stay in power long enough to push through a new 4-year budget that will leave Irish workers on the brink of destitution. Who is Cowen working for anyway?

This is from the Irish Times:

"Opposition parties have today stepped up pressure on the Government as it seeks to push ahead with passing next month's budget.

Fine Gael again called for an immediate general election and said the four-year budgetary plan should only be implemented by a Government which has a proper mandate....

"What is best for the country is that the negotiation about a programme for four years be done by a government which has four years to serve, that has a mandate from the public so that it has the authority and the credibility to not only develop and negotiate it but to implement it. I think that is in Ireland's best interest," he said. ("Opposition steps up pressure", Charlie Taylor, Irish Times)

The prospective belt-tightening measures will include the firing of 28,000 public employees, a boost in property taxes, a 10 percent cut in welfare benefits, and higher taxes on low-wage workers. Cowen believes that taxing low income families is preferable to making billionaire bondholders eat their losses. The whole thing stinks to high-heaven.

Is there a way out for Ireland? Economist Mark Weisbrot thinks so. Here's what he thinks should happen:

"The European authorities and IMF can loan Ireland any funds needed in the next year or two at very low interest rates....Once these borrowing needs are guaranteed, Ireland would not have to worry about spikes in its borrowing costs like the one that provoked the current crisis....The European authorities could scrap their pro-cyclical conditions and, instead, allow for Ireland to undertake a temporary fiscal stimulus to get their economy growing again. That is the most feasible, practical alternative to continued recession.

Instead, the European authorities are trying what the IMF... calls an "internal devaluation". This is a process of shrinking the economy and creating so much unemployment that wages fall dramatically, and the Irish economy becomes more competitive internationally on the basis of lower unit labour costs."

It's all de rigeur for the IMF. It wouldn't be an IMF program unless someone was starving. That's the benchmark for success.

Ireland doesn't need structural adjustment programs that shrink GDP, dismantle popular social programs and strip wealth from workers when low interest funding and fiscal stimulus can bring the economy back to life. This is politics not economics. The EU and IMF are using the crisis to push through their own agenda. Their real goal is to crush the unions, shred the social safety net, and roll back the gains of the Progressive Era.

The Irish people are left with no choice but to resist. Presently the Cowen government is collapsing. Bravo. Now it's off to the barricades to see if the damage can be undone. Ireland needs to withdraw from the EU and start fresh. It'll be a bumpy road at first, but there's no other way. Economist Dean Baker sums it up like this in an article in The Guardian. Here's what he said:

"Even a relatively small country like Ireland has options. Specifically, they could drop out of the euro and default on their debt....Like Ireland, Argentina had also been a poster child of the neoliberal crew before it ran into difficulties.

But the IMF can turn quickly. Its austerity programme lowered GDP by almost 10% and pushed the unemployment rate well into the double digits. By the end of the 2001, it was politically impossible for the Argentine government to agree to more austerity. As a result, it broke the supposedly unbreakable link between its currency and the dollar and defaulted on its debt.

The immediate effect was to make the economy worse, but by the second half of 2002, the economy was again growing. This was the start of five and a half years of solid growth, until the world economic crisis eventually took its toll in 2009."

The Irish people didn't struggle through centuries of famine and foreign occupation so they could be debt-peons in the EU's corporate Uberstate. Like Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams said, "We don't need anyone coming in to run the place for us. We can run it ourselves." Right. Tell the EU plutocrats to take their Utopian Bankstate and shove it.
Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis

Go Mish
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 07:15 PM   #109
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:08 AM
This is probably a very stupid question, but why wouldn't it be overall better to let Ireland default without leaving the euro? I don't really understand how leaving the euro is a viable option with debts that large relative to GDP anyhow, it will only make them larger.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 08:04 PM   #110
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
This is probably a very stupid question, but why wouldn't it be overall better to let Ireland default without leaving the euro? I don't really understand how leaving the euro is a viable option with debts that large relative to GDP anyhow, it will only make them larger.
It isn't a stupid question. I assume it is legally possible for Ireland to default and remain within the Eurozone, though this would be unprecedented for a Eurozone member country - then again, the currency is only in existence for around a decade.

The key issue is, however, that a large chunk of the debt consists of private debts owed by Irish banks to foreign banks. The former foolishly built up their balance sheets to unsustainable levels by huge lending to property developers, the latter foolishly lent them the money.

The argument from Shedlock and others is that these debts should not be the responsibility of the Irish electorate. It is as though the taxpayers of the state of Florida were made liable for debts owed by the Bank of Florida to JP Morgan, or whatever. The public sector element of the debt, i.e., the government deficit, is, I believe, manageable with cutbacks.
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2010, 06:38 AM   #111
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 03:08 AM
would it honestly have made anyone happier if Germany and France has decided to sell Irish bonds when it became obvious Ireland was in trouble?

this is the sort of arsed backward reasoning that's more embarassing than educational

Mark Weisbrot makes more sense but from a business perspective it's easy to understand why countries investing in Ireland under the guise of the IMF feel like they want to lay down some rules on what to do with all that money
we're not talking small change here
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2010, 12:11 PM   #112
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salome View Post
would it honestly have made anyone happier if Germany and France has decided to sell Irish bonds when it became obvious Ireland was in trouble?

this is the sort of arsed backward reasoning that's more embarassing than educational

Mark Weisbrot makes more sense but from a business perspective it's easy to understand why countries investing in Ireland under the guise of the IMF feel like they want to lay down some rules on what to do with all that money
we're not talking small change here
'Cos, like, socialisation of losses has worked out pretty well so far.
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 07:47 PM   #113
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 09:08 PM
The situation here is totally fucked.

The IMF behaves like a criminal enterprise much of the time and this bailout is a terrible deal for the Irish people. Default and fuck the banks in France, Germany and the UK. They took risks that didn't pay off, too bad.
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 07:58 PM   #114
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
The situation here is totally fucked.

The IMF behaves like a criminal enterprise much of the time and this bailout is a terrible deal for the Irish people. Default and fuck the banks in France, Germany and the UK. They took risks that didn't pay off, too bad.
Agreed 100% - but the EU is equally guilty of behaving like a criminal enterprise in all of this (allegedly IMF were pushing for a lower rate than our esteemed EU overlords).

I am in the process of transferring my modest savings into USD and CHF.
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2010, 04:53 PM   #115
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 09:08 PM
YouTube - An Irishman abroad tells it like it is !! :-)
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2010, 05:42 PM   #116
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 03:08 AM
^ That rant is class war bullshit. Stopped watching when he started ranting about "wanking f***** employees of banks".
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2010, 05:56 PM   #117
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
^ That rant is class war bullshit. Stopped watching when he started ranting about "wanking f***** employees of banks".
The last 2 seconds is why I disseminated it, just go watch that part.
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2010, 08:21 PM   #118
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 03:08 AM
Ah right ok. I assume the entire rant is basically a pisstake.
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2010, 10:56 PM   #119
Refugee
 
A stor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.A. East Coast
Posts: 2,464
Local Time: 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
^ That rant is class war bullshit. Stopped watching when he started ranting about "wanking f***** employees of banks".
I continued to watch because he spoke of the hard working, middle class people who live according to their means.
__________________
A stor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2010, 07:18 PM   #120
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 03:08 AM
Drastic Cuts and Punitive Interest Rates: The EU Is Pushing Ireland to the Brink of Ruin - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
Quote:
The Dublin government has been congratulated and encouraged from across the European Union for being so brave in sticking to its austerity goals. The unemployed, low-income workers, pensioners, students -- hardly any sector of society has been left unscathed.

Yet this huge national sacrifice will not significantly improve the country's massive debt problem. The sometimes severe cuts to social welfare payments, public sector pay and state investment pale into insignificance when compared to the massive gaps in the Irish banks' accounts. That is why investors are continuing, undeterred, to speculate on Ireland's eventual insolvency.

Irish Taxpayers Paying the Bill

The bailout loan of €85 billion that the EU, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund agreed to extend to Ireland just over a week ago had failed to calm market jitters. And why would it? After all, it actually exacerbates the country's financial problems.

The EU has failed to make the foreign bondholders take a hit on the losses from toxic real estate loans. In particular, the ECB insisted that the interests of the German, British and French banks would continue to be protected. Instead, Irish taxpayers are being asked to pay the bill: at a hefty interest rate of 5.8 percent, to ensure the foreign creditors will get their money back rather than face any losses.

That may be something German banks welcome, but it is a disaster for Ireland. And many economists now predicts that it is just a question of time before the country defaults. "This 'bailout' will sink the Republic," warns economist David McWilliams in the Belfast Telegraph. "It is the EU giving us enough rope to hang ourselves in the hope that we don't hang all of them."
A welcome riposte from a well respected German newspaper to the Eurofederalist elete.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com