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Old 06-01-2010, 09:37 PM   #151
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If you were drinking in bar and were harassed, then that's unacceptable and clearly you should report it to the relevant authorities. If, in the other hand, you identify as a 'cougar' and scored with a 20-something male (and I'm not very familar with the term 'cougar', it's an Americanism that has crossed the Atlantic only quite recently) then surely that's a success?
Entirely depends on how hot he was.


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Old 06-02-2010, 04:03 AM   #152
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can I just say, a 20 something male harrassing someone older, I dont see that as a 'cougar' moment, I see it as a male just tryin to grope a woman......



I still say the whole term of 'cougar' is very very VERY silly.

I know its an American term, but I dont think it completely applies beyond America, or HAS to, if I make sense.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:57 AM   #153
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I really have not the slightest clue of what you are trying to elucidate here. If you were drinking in bar and were harassed, then that's unacceptable and clearly you should report it to the relevant authorities. If, in the other hand, you identify as a 'cougar' and scored with a 20-something male (and I'm not very familar with the term 'cougar', it's an Americanism that has crossed the Atlantic only quite recently) then surely that's a success?

It wasn't in a bar. It was at a baseball game, not that it's even relevant. I hardly drink at all and I don't go to bars-alcoholism in my family and all that. And no, I don't identify myself as a 'cougar' at all. I evaluate people and have relationships with them for who they are as people. I don't consider being harassed by a drunk guy, any drunk guy, to be a "score". I'm not out to 'score'. They're not hot to me, no matter how good looking they are. I like to talk to people and to get to know them and I like them to treat me with respect, the same way that I treat them.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:36 PM   #154
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They're not hot to me, no matter how good looking they are.
Thing is, it's possible to be so completely distracted by the pretty that you don't even realize you're being sexually assaulted while it's happening. When the fog lifts and he's long gone, you're like...did he, um? omg he did! dammit, I should be mad.

At least that's how it went for me at a bachlorette party in a dance club recently.
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:54 AM   #155
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Well we'll just have to disagree on that

Back to the original topic-you can have this ad for a dating service but not a "cougar" dating service ad? Not Google, it's in a magazine. Um, they didn't notice that?

Miami Living Magazine Runs Penis Shadow Ad (NSFW PHOTO)

"When we created the ad, we never imagined a magazine like Miami Living would approve it, but judging by the amount of sign-ups we received since the magazine has come out, this 'shadow penis' ad seems to work and might become a staple of our campaign," the rep said. "This ad is definitely a true reflection of what EstablishedMen.com is all about - connecting professional men with beautiful women for mutually beneficial relationships."
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:27 PM   #156
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"When we created the ad, we never imagined a magazine like Miami Living would approve it,"
Which of course begs the question, if they really thought that, why create it at all, then?

If that was unintentional, that's strange, if it was intentional, that's really lame, and immature. And I think their mission statement, the way it's worded, anyway, just points to one of the biggest, if not the biggest, problems with dating nowadays-if people want to use dating services and whatnot, that's entirely their choice, but it just seems people are trying to force people into relationships, or people are trying to force themselves into relationships. I mean, yeah, sure, there's days I wish I weren't single, too, but I'll let a relationship happen naturally, on its own, when it's meant to happen, you know?

I dunno. Maybe I'm reading their mission wrong, but that's kinda how it sounded to me.

Angela
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:54 PM   #157
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interesting.


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The Boyfriend Myth
JUN 1 2010, 5:09 PM ET | Comment


mando2003us/flickr

Caitlin Flanagan's most recent piece on teen America has attracted a fairly predictable controversy. Any article that called pop singer Taylor Swift a leader in a "cultural insurrection" would get reactions; however, Flanagan's master stroke was not in casting Swift as a culture warrior, but in her description of the cultural war in question, itself—the movement Flanagan describes as "one of the last, great stands for human dignity." Whereas the women of previous generations fought for the right to vote, the right to work, and the right to choose, today's young woman, as per Flanagan, is fighting a for a new kind of feminist victory: The right to want a boyfriend.

Whether girls of any era have lacked cultural permission to pine over boys, or drippy crush anthems to listen to while pining, is debatable. But Flanagan perceives this pining as a bold stand against casual sex, which she casts as both a recent invention and a slap in the face to feminists of generations past.

"No matter how forward-thinking, no matter how progressive, those long-ago women might seem to us now"—here, Flanagan is describing women of her mother's generation, women who campaigned for birth control and sex education and would have been old enough to have teenaged daughters in the late 1970s; roughly the age, that is, of Gloria Steinem, who turned 40 in 1974—"they shared one unquestioned assumption about girls and sex, a premise that, if expressed today, might cast doubt on one's commitment to girls' sexual liberation: all of them, to a woman, believed in the Boyfriend Story. This set wasn't in the business of providing girls and young women the necessary information and services to allow boys and men to use and discard them sexually."

Yet girls today, Flanagan says, are being "used and discarded" by the hook-up culture; "allowing" themselves to be, in fact. She sees them as more likely to have casual sex than boyfriends, more likely to want boyfriends than casual sex, and more likely to be treated badly by young men as the result of casual sex, since without the obligation of a relationship, men have no reason to care about women or treat them well. It's a grim picture.


It also hinges on some substantial inaccuracies. Whether Gloria Steinem's generation believed "to a woman" in the importance of boyfriends, for example, is a question worth asking. (Short answer: No. Longer answer: Ends with "like a fish needs a bicycle.") And then, there's the issue of whether the 1960s and 1970s—the decades that gave us swinging, free love, and the rise of the Playboy empire—could reasonably be described as averse to casual sex. But Flanagan's biggest error is in suggesting that the Boyfriend Story, or boyfriends in general, are of necessity healthier than hook-ups: safer, kinder, less risky. This isn't an issue of opinion; it is actually, and demonstrably, untrue.

Hooking up may leave girls unsatisfied and lonely. It may include experiences that are, in Flanagan's words, "frightening, embarrassing, uncomfortable at best, painful at worst." But assuming that these experiences are all consensual—I trust Flanagan wouldn't qualify date rape as a "hook-up," however grim her language may be—we can't know that they are "hurting" girls in any measureable way. Here is what we do know to be hurting girls in a measureable way, however: Their boyfriends.

According to a 2005 survey on teen dating abuse, 13 percent of girls who have been in relationships—girls, that is to say, who have had boyfriends—report being "physically hurt or hit." A startling one in four said that their boyfriends had pressured them to have sex they didn't want. Twenty-six percent reported recurring, and severe, verbal abuse in their relationships. And then, there's this, from a no less august source than the U.S. Department of Justice: "Young women between the ages of 16 and 24 in dating relationships experience the highest rate of domestic violence and sexual assault." The highest. What was that about Boyfriend Stories again?

Of course, this doesn't mean that having a boyfriend is bad. There are few things more wonderful than being in a happy relationship. It only means that boys "hurt" girls in relationships and out of them, and that the mere fact of having a boyfriend is not enough to insulate one from disrespect, sexual maltreatment, or abuse. I don't doubt that Flanagan wants girls to be happy, or that she's worried that the current social context encourages young men to disrespect them. I happen to agree with her, on that point; young men receive plenty of messages that they are not to take girls seriously, as people with full inner lives, and they are also instructed that they are to have sex with those girls anyway. (God help the boys who would prefer to have sex with each other.) Sometimes they hit, rape, and emotionally torture girls; sometimes, they disrespect, insult, or pressure them into sexualizing themselves in uncomfortable ways. These are serious problems. And they don't end after you start going steady.

If the facts backed Flanagan up—if withholding sex for boyfriends could actually solve the problem of girls being hurt by sexual partners—I would join the crusade against the hook-up culture tomorrow. But boys aren't treating girls badly because they have sex; they're treating them badly because we live in a culture that encourages disrespect toward girls. A man who dislikes women as a group does not change simply because he becomes intimate with one particular woman, and telling girls that love is the key to ending a man's hurtful behavior plays into many of the most pernicious myths about abuse. If we tell young women that having a boyfriend is the way to stay safe and be respected, what do they do if their boyfriends become unsafe? Most stay. Most believe in the Boyfriend Story long after it starts to hurt.


i find this fascinating. and this is what bothers me about the whole "Twilight" phenomenon. i understand that it's mostly about Robert Pattinson's hair, but there's something so desperate and needy about Bella, thrilling as it might be to have a vampire and a werewolf fight over you, but it seems as if her only reason for being is to provide something for the (shirtless) boys to fight over.

if given a choice, i'd almost rather see the oversexed but totally confident and independent and self-sufficient Samantha Jones going through men like Kleenex but finding joy and empowerment from it rather than a girl who's entire sense of self-worth appears to come from what the boys think of her. who do you think is going to leave if he hits her? and, what's more, not all men looking for casual sex are predators, nor do all girls feel pressure to perform for whatever reason. i like the idea that sex is a mutually consented to activity between co-equals with each responsible for the consequences of their actions -- whether that consequence is a night of spectacular sex, coffee in the morning, and wishing each other well and being on your way, or herpes. if we want women to be sexually mature adults, we need to treat them as such. does this mean acting like a man? no. this means acting like how we want men to act, and how we tell our boys to act. it seems that there is a gender neutral standard of responsible sexuality that both genders should be encouraged to adhere to.

is "i felt pressured" really something an adult would say to excuse bad or regrettable behavior? once someone is over the age of 18, does this hold any water for anything? would a man ever get to say this about a sexual encounter?

perhaps this is a good byproduct of the hookup culture. self-reliance becomes a value. you pick yourself up after an encounter and march along. you don't suddenly drop everything because a boy gave you his phone number. it doesn't send the message that you're nothing if you're not in a relationship.
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Old 06-07-2010, 05:29 PM   #158
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weird, i just came across this:


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Don’t take your dating tips from ‘Twilight’
Bella’s a doormat, Jacob a lapdog and Edward is terrible husband material
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By Alonso Duralde

Literature has long provided psychologists and therapists with metaphors for examining bad relationship choices.

From the “Cinderella complex” (women who fear independence and subconsciously long to be taken care of) to the “Peter Pan syndrome” (men who refuse to grow up and face adult responsibilities), well-known characters stand in for all of us as we attempt to make our way in the world.

It might behoove the current generation of shrinks to cast an eye on the exceedingly popular “Twilight” series of films and books, since they’re being read by a generation of impressionable young people.

There’s certainly nothing wrong with fictional characters making mistakes and paying the consequences — if they were all sane and stable, how exceedingly boring would that be? But the fictional inhabitants of Forks, Wash., all bring some heavy-duty neuroses to the table.

What can we learn from the central love triangle of “Twilight”? Here’s how the experts might map it out for us.

The Jacob Quandary
We’ve all known the nice guy who always gets his heart broken by the woman he loves — he’s the devoted best pal who focuses all of his attentions and affections on the girl who’s made it clear time after time that she’s completely in love with someone else. And sure, maybe that other guy will leave her in the forest and she’ll temporarily pay attention to the nice guy and make him think he’s got a chance, but ultimately, it won't work out.

So let us pity poor Jacob, who’s always doomed to be Bella’s lapdog (or lapwolf), but is never gonna close the deal. Jacob listens to her blather on about Edward, teaches her how to ride a motorcycle, and rounds up a werewolf army to protect her, sure, but he’s an also-ran.

The Edward Entanglement
The name “Jake” spiked in popularity when 1980s girls who grew up loving “Sixteen Candles” began naming their own children after Jake Ryan, the dreamy senior who sweeps in on a white horse (red Porsche, whatever) to scoop up Molly Ringwald.
One suspects that Edward Cullen will give his name not just to infants but to a whole new branch of couples therapy. He’s an entrancing and engaging character, but let’s take a look at the arrows in his romantic quiver:

--When he first meets Bella, he tells her she smells terrible.
--Throughout the relationship, he takes complete control over how physical things will get.
--At a key moment of crisis, he abandons the love of his life in the middle of a forest.
--When he finally does get her pregnant, his first suggestion is that she get an abortion and then get her best friend (and vanquished romantic rival) to impregnate her instead.
OK, yes, yes: “He’s a vampire.” I get it. But you know who isn’t a vampire, “Twilight” fans? EVERY MAN YOU WILL MEET IN REAL LIFE. And as such, if he pulls any of the above on you, run, don’t walk. No matter much he sparkles.

Even Edward’s creator acknowledged that he’s anything but husband material: “Maybe Edward would not be the best boyfriend, because he’s such a tortured soul,” noted author Stephenie Meyer in a 2008 interview. “But you also couldn’t just be his friend because he’s terribly sexy and charismatic.”

Ah yes, the hunky bad boy — what woman can resist? Certainly not the heroine of the “Twilight” saga, which of course brings us to ...

The Bella Conundrum

What’s a girl to do? Her parents are divorced (but amicably, and they both adore her). She’s uprooted in the middle of her high-school years to a new school (except that it’s her idea to make the move). She has to make friends with a new group of peers (who adore her within seconds of her arrival). And she has to grapple with adolescent crushes (on two supernatural creatures who become completely obsessed with her).
Poor Bella. Given everything she’s had to endure, who can blame her for a few arguably misguided choices? Like the part where she pines for an outsider for whom the descriptive “dangerous” is an understatement? Or how she leads on her best friend before dumping him for her unreliable ex?

Does anyone else find it odd, incidentally, that the century-old Edward is so smitten with the just-got-her-drivers-license Bella? Would “Twilight” fans feel as heart-fluttery if, say, Hugh Hefner started dating Dakota Fanning's little sister, Elle Fanning?
Besides her iffy choices of the heart, the Bella behavior that’s most potentially toxic to girls is how much the character allows herself to be defined by the other people in her life. If readers like the abstinence message of “Twilight,” fine, but it’s never Bella who gets to steer her own ship and make her own choices. As British newspaper the Independent observed in reviewing “Breaking Dawn,” the fourth novel in the series, “Bella Swan lives to serve men and suffer.
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Old 06-07-2010, 06:34 PM   #159
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if given a choice, i'd almost rather see the oversexed but totally confident and independent and self-sufficient Samantha Jones going through men like Kleenex but finding joy and empowerment from it rather than a girl who's entire sense of self-worth appears to come from what the boys think of her.
If given the choice between these two extremes, I'd probably choose a life of celibacy. I'm not sure that a calloused heart is any healthier than an abused one.

Again, a genuine love relationship -- based on mutual respect, admiration, self-worth, and that mysterious quality known as love -- has nothing to do with either of those options.
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Old 06-07-2010, 06:57 PM   #160
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if given a choice, i'd almost rather see the oversexed but totally confident and independent and self-sufficient Samantha Jones going through men like Kleenex but finding joy and empowerment from it rather than a girl who's entire sense of self-worth appears to come from what the boys think of her.
In as far as it goes, Samantha is a positive role model. For the small minority of women that want to choose that lifestyle. Just as a male version of Samantha (which, interestingly enough, would be viewed as rather non-PC in this age) would be potentially a positive role model for the small minority of men that want to choose that lifestyle, assuming they have the right attributes ('PUA' skills or whatever). But the assumption that is often made - and I don't mean by you - that a majority of straight guys aspire to the 'player' lifestyle is, frankly, really boring, and largely untrue in my experience. It's ok for Jack Nicholson, but it doesn't suit most, is what I'm saying.

I would bet that if there was a hypothetical poll along the lines "which SATC character would you most like to date?" most guys would choose Carrie. She isn't by any stretch the best looking but she is the sweetest.
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:09 PM   #161
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I'm just relieved to finally see someone point out that guys need to take more responsiblity to be decent human beings. We criticize girls all the time for issues related to sex, and why they do what they do-well, how about holding guys accountable for their actions, too? It takes two to tango, after all. But the guys get the high-fives and the girls get the shame. It's so irritating.

I've always said you can tell a lot about a guy by the way he treats his mother. If he shows her respect, talks about her in positive terms, has a good communication going with her, he's worth checking out. If he does the opposite, steer clear.

(And then there are those guys that are creepily friendly with their moms, but that's a whole other can of worms)

As for the whole literature thing, yeah, I've heard those complaints about 'Twilight', too. As pointed out, though, there's all sorts of literature that contains skewed ideas of how men and women act ("Romeo and Juliet", anyone? And that's required reading in middle and high school!). But then again, look at how the people who live in those time periods acted, look at what the societies believed. Where do you think a lot of authors got the inspiration?

So long as the social norms are in place, the literature, movies, and music will reflect it. Young people have and will get into bad relationships with or without 'Twilight', or "Cinderella", or "Romeo and Juliet", or whatever. If the parents aren't teaching their sons and daughters proper conduct in regards to sex and love, then their views and actions are already likely in trouble.

Angela
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:15 PM   #162
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I'm just relieved to finally see someone point out that guys need to take more responsiblity to be decent human beings. We criticize girls all the time for issues related to sex, and why they do what they do-well, how about holding guys accountable for their actions, too? It takes two to tango, after all. But the guys get the high-fives and the girls get the shame. It's so irritating.
But don't we already require guys to take responsibility for their actions - using the legal system if necessary? For example, a husband who leaves his wife and kids is, quite correctly, required to pay child maintenance. Of course it would be better if husbands never left their wives and kids, or indeed, wives never left their husbands and kids (divorce is more often initiated by women, IIRC), but we don't live in an ideal world.
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:19 PM   #163
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If given the choice between these two extremes, I'd probably choose a life of celibacy. I'm not sure that a calloused heart is any healthier than an abused one.

Again, a genuine love relationship -- based on mutual respect, admiration, self-worth, and that mysterious quality known as love -- has nothing to do with either of those options.
I can think of a real life example of Samantha (way better looking, high boyfriend turnover, discourses about 'fucking' while in crowded restaurants, etc. Catholic Irish girls aren't supposed to talk about fucking. It's permissble to engage in such activity for the purposes of breeding babies for the Vatican, but not discuss it in public) and, frankly, she seems pretty happy to me.
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:19 PM   #164
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But don't we already require guys to take responsibility for their actions - using the legal system if necessary?
Only if you measure male responsibility by whether or not you pay for the kids you had with a woman you promised to love until death before you decided to run off with your secretary.

Everything Angela said.
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:28 PM   #165
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If given the choice between these two extremes, I'd probably choose a life of celibacy. I'm not sure that a calloused heart is any healthier than an abused one.
You seem to always equate, or I should say, conflate, sex with love (ie. feelings of the heart). Maybe it is a religious or moral thing for you specifically that sees it as such, but I think there are many people out there who are not necessarily the Samantha "extreme" who have, at different periods in their life had very close, meaningful relationships with partners and who have also had sex in a more casual way, but have not been harmed by that nor would it be accurate to describe their hearts as calloused.

You communicate in a really vague way, or at least I often don't really know what it is that you wish to be saying, so I will ask since I'm wondering - do you think that sex outside of a loving relationship is harmful?
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