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Old 04-07-2010, 07:16 PM   #31
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He was in a fuckin WAR ZONE !!!
What? You say that like the guy was suntanning on the beaches of Normandy. He was walking the fucking streets in his city. He wasnt walking through an active battle. Of course there are going to be dangers, but that doesnt mean the soldiers have to ignore his life like they would a stray cat.
And dont give me that shit about how these soldiers could be at home playing video games and going to school. I guarantee that a lot of these guys are there because they thought it would be exciting or because they couldnt get a normal job or because they didnt know what they wanted to do with their lives. I dont downplay how much balls it takes to be there, but its delusional to think they're all there simply because they want to fight for their country. And you know as well as I do that they arent spilling their blood for 'those ingrates'

And your line about 'stupid enough to be mistaken for bad guys'? Do you mean by being brown?

What was your bolding of 'Americans' supposed to convey to me?
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Old 04-07-2010, 07:56 PM   #32
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Deep is trying to be sarcastic, probably. Nobody really knows anymore. (Or cares.)
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Old 04-07-2010, 07:59 PM   #33
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fuck. should have known
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:20 PM   #34
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And dont give me that shit about how these soldiers could be at home playing video games and going to school. I guarantee that a lot of these guys are there because they thought it would be exciting or because they couldnt get a normal job or because they didnt know what they wanted to do with their lives. I dont downplay how much balls it takes to be there, but its delusional to think they're all there simply because they want to fight for their country.
Just to let you know, to become a pilot in an Apache Attack Helicopter, one must be a college graduate, and successfully recieve an Army officers commission from graduating ROTC or Officer's Candidates School. Then, you have to put in for and be selected for the Army's air branch and be sent to flight school. This is the most competitive and selective branch for officers in the US Army. Then, you must successfully graduate from flight school which takes several more years of difficult and demanding training.
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:33 PM   #35
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Just to let you know, to become a pilot in an Apache Attack Helicopter, one must be a college graduate, and successfully recieve an Army officers commission from graduating ROTC or Officer's Candidates School. Then, you have to put in for and be selected for the Army's air branch and be sent to flight school. This is the most competitive and selective branch for officers in the US Army. Then, you must successfully graduate from flight school which takes several more years of difficult and demanding training.
My post was directed more toward deep's sweeping (and apparently sarcastic) comment which seemed to be a statement on the low level grunts. I understand how difficult it is to be a military pilot of any kind and, for the most part, think they're all pretty bad ass
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Old 04-08-2010, 01:55 AM   #36
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I've been thinking about this video so much since I watched it, and I'm still at a loss for words. I can understand the soldier's confusion regarding the RPG, in war you don't know what to expect, you feel under pressure and so forth. But like JT said, it just seemed like a day at the office to these pilots, it didn't mean anything to them, it was like sitting around with Xbox Live going. I'm not saying the pilots are stupid. I don't know these men. But I am going to say they're cold-hearted. What followed was absolutely inexcusable and anyone attempting to justify it would not be met by a serious answer from me.

Innocent people are dead, and the killers are being lauded by some. Let's say a handful of the deceased were insurgents, which I personally think is rubbish, and the result should still difficult to swallow for any red, white and blue-blooded gawd blesh 'merica citizen. I'm not trying to drop an anti-American ball here, as Australian soldiers have committed atrocities in Afghanistan that more people should know about. This shouldn't happen anywhere, by anyone.
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:04 AM   #37
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I would agree with you on the situation you cited, but I'd hardly call that man innocent. The situations would be more analogous if the police were called to an area where a man with a gun had been seen, saw an innocent man carrying a comb, and killed him because they thought it was the gunman. Not very defendable
No? A cop searching for a gun man, who doesn't know what he looks like other than a vague description, sees a man who matches the description, yells for the person to turn around, the person is frightened and freezes, doesn't respond, then turns holding an object that in the low light appears to be a weapon... the officer fires... only to find out later that it wasn't a weapon.

to you, that may not be "very defendable." again, i will agree to disagree.

i'm not saying it's right... i'm not saying that the officer should just shrug it off and say oh well, my bad... i'm not even condoning it.

i'm just saying that in the intense high pressure situations that these people are put in, where their life and the lives of their fellow soldiers and other civilians are dependant on a decision that the person must make in a split second... sometimes tragic accidents will happen.

there was no malicious intent from these soldiers. it was a tragic accident.
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:10 AM   #38
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Malicious intent? Maybe not...

Desynthesized therefore using impaired judgement? I would say yes.
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:49 AM   #39
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Mistaking a camera for an RPG (especially considering the actions of the person - peeking it around a corner, 'aiming' at the helicopter, then quickly ducking back behind again) is tragic, but understandable. I think it's the actions surrounding the van that are what most people struggle to get their heads around.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:38 AM   #40
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fair enough
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Old 04-08-2010, 05:16 PM   #41
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But like JT said, it just seemed like a day at the office to these pilots, it didn't mean anything to them, it was like sitting around with Xbox Live going. I'm not saying the pilots are stupid. I don't know these men. But I am going to say they're cold-hearted. What followed was absolutely inexcusable and anyone attempting to justify it would not be met by a serious answer from me.
Well, I think you need to understand the context under which this took place. This was in Baghdad in early 2007. Thousands of innocent civilians were being targeted and murdered during that winter/spring time period. Both the Iraqi military, police and US forces were working hard to try to stop this bloodshed. Killing and capturing insurgents was a major priority, but the more important task was protecting the population. Thats very difficult to do when the enemy dresses up like normal civilians and hides among the civilian population.

In this particular instance, the Apache pilots are trying to provide air surport to US troops on the ground who are taking fire. They are trying to identify insurgents and stop them before they fire an RPG or plant an IED in the road that could kill innocent civilians or US troops. You have to realize that while there is the risk of killing innocent civilians by taking a shot, innocent civilians and the soldiers they are supporting are also put at risk when they don't take a shot and insurgents escape and plant an IED or fire an RPG.

I don't see any evidence that anyone in the video is "cold-hearted". Your seeing a few minutes in the lives of soldiers that are deployed there for 15 months. Ultimately, its their collective actions during this time period that brought the violence in Iraq down and saved millions of peoples lives.

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Innocent people are dead, and the killers are being lauded by some
The US military, especially those deployed to Iraq in the 2007-2008 time frame are responsible for dramatically reducing the violence in Iraq, restoring public services and governence to many parts of the country and bringing a level of stability where economic and political development can continue.

The US military's main objective is to protect the population. They don't want to hurt or kill innocent civilians because it makes their mission that much harder. It drives civilians towards the insurgency which the military is trying to destroy and seperate from the population.

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Let's say a handful of the deceased were insurgents, which I personally think is rubbish, and the result should still difficult to swallow for any red, white and blue-blooded gawd blesh 'merica citizen.
Well, how would you be able to declare that the people you saw in the video were innocent civilians or insurgents? Your looking at a black and white video which just last a few minutes and only comes from one camera. You don't have the other information that the military has access too from troops on the ground up close or Iraqi spies or informents on the ground, as well as other camera's, listening devices etc.

The US troops in the operation on camera had no intention of killing innocent civilians. The same cannot be side for the insurgents they were fighting who would randomly take civilians, blind fold them, and shoot them in the back of the head, often just after they had tortured them. The US troops were trying to protect the civilians from these acts of violence by insurgents that were common in Baghdad in 2007.
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Old 04-08-2010, 06:22 PM   #42
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No? A cop searching for a gun man, who doesn't know what he looks like other than a vague description, sees a man who matches the description, yells for the person to turn around, the person is frightened and freezes, doesn't respond, then turns holding an object that in the low light appears to be a weapon... the officer fires... only to find out later that it wasn't a weapon.
What are you even talking about? You said the man said he had a gun and pointed the 'gun' through his jacket.
If you're trying to say your new make believe scenario is more like what happened in the video than what I described, I'd have to disagree.
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Old 04-08-2010, 06:26 PM   #43
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The US troops in the operation on camera had no intention of killing innocent civilians. The same cannot be side for the insurgents they were fighting who would randomly take civilians, blind fold them, and shoot them in the back of the head, often just after they had tortured them. The US troops were trying to protect the civilians from these acts of violence by insurgents that were common in Baghdad in 2007.
Thats a very valid and important point. I just think they got too sloppy in this particular incident
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:04 PM   #44
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The 'Full Version' of The Wikileaks Video Is Missing 30 Minutes of Footage - wikileaks - Gawker
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:21 PM   #45
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I understand what you are saying, and of course hindsight it's easier to see things, but that being said, the cameras were not being aimed at them. This was not an imminent threat where decisions had to be made in seconds.
I've never been in a war, but I'm pretty sure if I was, and I had a chance to take out enemies before they posed an imminent threat, I'd go with that plan stat. And those guys did look armed to me. I still think I can see an AK-47 on one of them, but apparently that's incorrect.

I'm with pfan that the part of the video that's most disturbing is the van getting shot at when they try to rescue the guy on the side of the road. I don't believe they gunners knew there were kids in their van, and in their minds, they were still engaging enemies. People coming to help those enemies are then construed as more enemies. When the soldiers arrived and found the children, it's obvious that the guys on the ground were in a rush to get them help.

It's an awful situation, and it's easy to cringe and think you'd do better, but there's way any of us can know that without being there.
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