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Old 08-17-2009, 07:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Se7en View Post
i just can't take anything you post here seriously at this point. you're all over the map.
Or maybe I'm just all over your map.

Originally Posted by Se7en View Post
an atomized society (which we surely live in, i can agree on that point).
Good, good, good.

Originally Posted by Se7en View Post
frankly, i can't think of any so-called "right" ideologies that do not espouse a capitalism of some sort. i suppose the hyper state capitalisms of fascism/stalinism appear to be "socialist", but surplus value is appropriated the same way as any capitalist firm (just by different actors) and there is no meaningful workplace democracy. did you have something in mind, regarding a "right" ideology that is not pro-capitalism? i would be interested to read about it.
Well, for a start, I think we probably have very different starting points in terms of a definition of capitalism. Like most conservatives, I essentially view capitalism as the 'natural order' of things - essentially, as the expression of individuals and families to make a living and improve their lot, as it were - be it in their own right or via the mechanism of corporations.

In other words, capitalism is really just a natural human, and default, impulse. (You can call it greed if you wish) I'd prefer a different word, frankly, as people seem to have negative impressions of 'capitalism', but I think we're starting from very different points.

But, to address your specific question as to whether there is such a thing as a right wing ideology that does not espouse capitalism; well, under your definition, perhaps not, but there are clearly anti-free trade, pro-protectionist rightwingers, such as Patrick Buchanan.

Historically, within Roman Catholicism for example, we can trace a movement that was equally sceptical of capitalism and Marxism - i.e., as represented, for example, by the 'Social Credit' movement, influenced by C.H. Douglas's Social Credit Philosophy. Social Credit was popular among conservative and Catholic politicians during the 1930's and 1940's- although it was a socialist theory.

It's also interesting to note that the UK British National Party has quite a left leaning economic and social policy platform, e.g.:

Britain’s survival depends on a technology-intensive manufacturing base, protected from globalisation and rampant internationalist exploitation – the core of the British National Party’s plan for rebuilding this nation’s economy after decades of Tory and Labour neglect.

Globalisation has caused the export of jobs and industries to the Far East, and has brought ruin and unemployment to British industries and the communities who depend on them.
ECONOMY : The British National Party

“Marketisation,” and particularly the Conservative-created Private Finance Initiative (PFI) schemes imposed by Gordon Brown, has been a disaster which is saddling Trusts and the taxpayer with enormous debts. We totally reject this attempt to turn the nation’s health service into a private profit centre for giant corporations.
HEALTH : The British National Party

The above quotes almost reads like extracts from a Labour party manifesto of the 1970s - and indeed, some Labour MPs are, to this day, quite socially conservative.

Indeed, a philosophy of neo-liberalist globalism is surely inconsistent with anti-immigrationism, so perhaps the BNP are not quite as stupid as some claim.

I would also point out in passing that at the time of the Irish famine of 1845-1848, although both major political parties, the Tories and the Whigs (Liberals), were broadly pro-laissez faire, the Tories were significantly less aggressively so than the Liberals, and did more in terms of direct government assistance (still not remotely enough, granted). The Liberals once elected to power got rid of the social programs that the Tories had put in place.

Originally Posted by Se7en View Post
don't know much about him, but a cursory examination of wikipedia reveals a class analysis and collectivism that i would have expected to be anathema to you. moreover, he appears to be distinctly anti-family :
That is not a particularly representative quote from Debord, but fair enough.

Though it concerns me that the following seems to be happening in front of our eyes:

“Owners of capital will stimulate working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable.

The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks which will have to be nationalized and State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism.”
[Karl Marx, 1867]

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Old 08-18-2009, 02:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
This is why I advocate for community and family values.
And how would that help this man?

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