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Old 07-21-2014, 03:36 AM   #106
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Man it's getting more and more grim. In our newspapers it's still the most covered topic, but it more and more seems like the Rebels are behind this with help from mother Russia. There are plenty of teams on the premises, but they aren't allowed near the crash to identify victims or to research the cause of the accident. There's a fridge train with all the victim's bodies in it, still waiting to be released by the rebels so they can be transported here and identified.
If the rebels had nothing to do with this, why would they make this even harder? Sounds like a coverup operation to me. Destroying as much evidence as possible before letting the world investigate.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:06 AM   #107
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If the rebels left the bodies as they were we'd be hearing about how awful they are for being so careless. I mean, for god's sakes, they even managed to turn that image of the rebel holding a toy into some source for outrage.

But ugh, never mind, arguing over the same old thing is getting us nowhere.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:16 AM   #108
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A guy who used to be in the same group of friends as me died on that plane.
After senselessly destroying the life of hundreds of families the "rebels" could at least have done the decent thing and feck off to give proper authorities the chance to get the bodies out of there asap instead of issuing 'warning shots', playing around with evidence and what not.
Admitting to their crime, while I do believe it was mostly incidental, also wouldn't go amiss.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:13 AM   #109
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Agreed, they are doing everything they can to postpone the research... why the hell would they keep the bodies there? Sure, 'nice' of them to put them in the trains (though the smell there was unbearable already), but what about sending them home so their loved ones can hold funeral services and start mourning properly? Nope, they don't want that just yet. It's still unclear what's going to happen.
Access to the crash site for unbiased researchers? Nope, no can do.

Just out of sheer curiousity, why do you feel the need to defend them Vlad?
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:39 AM   #110
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Just out of sheer curiousity, why do you feel the need to defend them Vlad?
Haven't I said enough about my personal views? But alright ...

 

Look, I don't support the rebels, at the beginning I admit to having some sympathy for them in a sort of romanticised sense ie. ordinary people being threatened by the Ukrainian government and attempting to resist against them. As it turned out, even despite not being a homogenous force ideologically, they are fairly reactionary and I can't support that. With that said, some of the criticisms levelled at them have come across as over the top and I'd wager we wouldn't be hearing about them had the Ukrainian army been present at the crash site. Like some others still, I'm still not convinced re: who shot down MH17, yes I entertained the possibility of the Ukrainians doing it (and this was based on everything I've known about their actions over the past few months + a few reports) and been suspicious towards the idea of the rebels doing this (since I don't believe it would have been beneficial for them in any way).

I think it's almost beyond doubt that the rebels will be found to be guilty, rightly or wrongly, but my biggest concern is that the Ukrainian government may get further support internationally despite their actions towards civilians of the rebel held territories and their drive in blaming every single one of their problems (I'm not even exaggerating, as much as it seems that I am) on the Russians.

This whole conflict has plenty of relevance to people I know, hence my approach to this particular subject.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:13 AM   #111
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I think it's almost beyond doubt that the rebels will be found to be guilty, rightly or wrongly,
You might just as well say that, no matter what evidence there is, you reckon the "rebels" were framed if found guilty.

Personally I don't give a toss who is right or wrong in the entire Russia / Ukraine debate. At this moment in time I don't even care whose exact fault it is that a commercial plane was shot out of the sky for no good reason.
I just find it despicable that completely innocent lives have been wasted and the decency to treat the aftermath correctly seems to be nonexistent.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:29 AM   #112
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I won't necessarily "reckon," just that the line won't deviate from the "rebels did it" as most are currently adamant about. We'll just have to wait to see the evidence.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest, I still don't know why a ceasefire wasn't called immediately.

Now (as reported by the Guardian's Shaun Walker and others) the Ukrainian government denied being involved in fighting in Donetsk whilst their military spokesperson says it's a planned offensive? I mean, come on.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:52 AM   #113
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Look, I don't support the rebels, at the beginning I admit to having some sympathy for them in a sort of romanticised sense ie. ordinary people being threatened by the Ukrainian government and attempting to resist against them.
This is the romanticized way in which Serb "rebels" in Croatia & Bosnia were described too, by Serbia and Russia. Until the world realized that they started 4 separate wars and that maybe 300,000 dead people were enough, so the line was drawn at Kosovo.

This conflict has pretty much paralleled the one in the Balkans to a T. Back there it all started with "rebels" controlling areas, blocking off rail, blocking off roads and setting up checkpoints, overruning abandoned military sites and so on. With a large, militarized state next door encouraging them (openly and under the table).

Terrifying, really.
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:22 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
Haven't I said enough about my personal views? But alright ...

 

Look, I don't support the rebels, at the beginning I admit to having some sympathy for them in a sort of romanticised sense ie. ordinary people being threatened by the Ukrainian government and attempting to resist against them. As it turned out, even despite not being a homogenous force ideologically, they are fairly reactionary and I can't support that. With that said, some of the criticisms levelled at them have come across as over the top and I'd wager we wouldn't be hearing about them had the Ukrainian army been present at the crash site. Like some others still, I'm still not convinced re: who shot down MH17, yes I entertained the possibility of the Ukrainians doing it (and this was based on everything I've known about their actions over the past few months + a few reports) and been suspicious towards the idea of the rebels doing this (since I don't believe it would have been beneficial for them in any way).

I think it's almost beyond doubt that the rebels will be found to be guilty, rightly or wrongly, but my biggest concern is that the Ukrainian government may get further support internationally despite their actions towards civilians of the rebel held territories and their drive in blaming every single one of their problems (I'm not even exaggerating, as much as it seems that I am) on the Russians.

This whole conflict has plenty of relevance to people I know, hence my approach to this particular subject.
But what about the sattelite reports the US and Ukrainian governments have produced already, stating the missile was launched from rebel territory? The phone calls, video stuff of them claiming to have shot another ukrainian plane, with later reports of them finding out they accidentally shot a passenger aircraft?
Do you reckon it's all faked?
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:05 PM   #115
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Despite all the what-if's of this situation, I would think that if the rebels are actually innocent, they would want to be as transparent and helpful as they could to investigators trying to access the crash site. Yet they most decidedly have not been:

Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crash Victims Held Hostage by Ukraine Rebels | New Republic

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Separatists controlling the area of the MH17 wreckage have declared that they can only ensure international investigators will have access to the crash site if Ukraine agrees to a truce: “We declare that we will guarantee the safety of international experts on the scene as soon as Kiev concludes a ceasefire agreement,” said Andre Purgin, a senior leader of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic. The declaration amounts to blackmail, as Nina Ivanovna put it. The separatists are holding the bodies of MH17 passengers hostage in exchange for territory.
And as for the investigators and their access:

Forensics Experts Finally Arrive at MH17 Site - The Wire

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Four days after the tragic crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, Dutch forensics experts are finally being allowed onto the scene. However, the site is still being guarded by armed rebels, who are making it very difficult for investigators to move in and out. The rebels also control much of the access to the bodies, most of which have been moved, decomposed, or otherwise tampered with. These Dutch experts have arrived to review remains of the victims, that is, if they can get to them.

The forensic experts are in the town of Torez, where many of the bodies have been put onto refrigerated rail cars. However, the train cannot leave, as Ukrainian prime minister Arseniy P. Yatsenyuk says the rebels controlling the area are preventing the train from moving. Thus far, the experts have only been able to inspect the bodies on the train.
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:37 PM   #116
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Despite all the what-if's of this situation, I would think that if the rebels are actually innocent, they would want to be as transparent and helpful as they could to investigators trying to access the crash site. Yet they most decidedly have not been:

Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crash Victims Held Hostage by Ukraine Rebels | New Republic



And as for the investigators and their access:

Forensics Experts Finally Arrive at MH17 Site - The Wire

Yes, but can you imagine being in their position? It's a time of war. What seems like a rational thing to do... they're the rebels. They're the underdogs fighting and grasping for an equal struggle, growing in power.

It doesn't seem logical to not want to be cooperative, but at the same time one must imagine that what may seem logical to us is not necessarily logical in the minds of individuals participating in essentially modern day civil war with heavy armaments and a strong opposition.

That being said... all signs do point to them. But I wouldn't be so quick as to say their unwillingness to cooperate means anything.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:12 PM   #117
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I struggle to have any sympathy for rebels "fighting and grasping for an equal struggle" when they're not letting fucking investigators access the crash site.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:51 PM   #118
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I'm not saying have sympathy, at all.

I'm telling you what makes sense to them doesn't necessarily make sense to you, and the compliment to that.

You're not at war right now. Guilty or innocent, there's several reasons why the rebels wouldn't be okay with investigators entering. And guilty or innocent, their lives are at risk. They've got a lot less of a reason to care about these victims than you or I do, for the sake of their own necks.
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:20 AM   #119
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If the rebels are innocent, I cannot conceive why they would restrict access for the reason I've already stated - it would be a publicity goldmine for them against Kiev. They would bend over backwards to ensure investigators find every shred of evidence against whoever did it. At worst, the rebels would look open, transparent, and efficient to the outside world; at best, it would incriminate their enemies and give a boost to the rebel cause.

Instead, by behaving in an obstructive manner, they are creating a distinct impression of guilt.
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:19 AM   #120
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I disagree. There's plenty of conceivable ideas. They're already using the bodies as bargaining chips for their war, as we know it.

They could be fearful that allowing investigators who are potentially pro western (the Dutch and the Malaysians, for example) would allow for exchanging of information.
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