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Old 07-18-2014, 01:11 PM   #76
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I doubt it. Their best luck is to try and steal it from the Ukrainian army, the Ukrainians have already stated earlier that if they leave anything behind that it's going to be damaged and unusable.
What are the odds the Russian army provided them, in an under-the-table sort of way?

It should be fairly easy to figure out where the missile originated from. The US experts were saying yesterday that they were able to confirm a missile was fired because of a heat map, so it follows that the heat map would reveal the origin of firing as well.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:47 PM   #77
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So, apparently Malaysia Airlines is flying MH17 along the same route today.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:50 PM   #78
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So, apparently Malaysia Airlines is flying MH17 along the same route today.

Recipe for disaster?
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:53 PM   #79
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That's like saying "plane flies through bad weather after plane crashes due to pilot error during bad weather."

Not a recipe for disaster.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:54 PM   #80
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But a recipe for media disaster.
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Old 07-18-2014, 04:08 PM   #81
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Official American position:

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President Obama said Friday that a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying nearly 300 people, including at least one U.S. citizen, was evidently shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.

In a White House news conference a day after the Boeing 777 crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Obama stopped short of saying who fired the missile or directly blaming Russia for the deaths, which he called “an outrage of unspeakable proportions.”

But he said the separatists “have received a steady flow of support from Russia,” including heavy arms, training and antiaircraft weapons. Pointing to rebel claims to have shot down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks, including a Ukrainian fighter jet, Obama said it was “not possible for these separatists to function the way they’re functioning . . . without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.”
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:43 PM   #82
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A tragedy, pretty flabbergasting to wake up to.



It's not something the US isn't guilty of either, is it?



From what I understood the UA government had declared it a no-fly zone, I don't remember it being reversed lately.



Where to start with this?

I do love it when many people just go the casual "Blame Russia!" route, and not taking into account the actions of the Ukrainian government which seems to get a free pass among many Westerners. And the whole "Putin wants the USSR back" is just lazy.
I think P--sy Riot and any other Russians who get silenced would agree that a hint of the USSR can be seen, even if obviously not full blown (as it would clearly not fly with people who lived through it). Or their new ban on swearing coming after their ban on positive speech towards homosexuality. I just don't like that a country that has produced some of the world's greatest art and architecture still have all these restrictions for fear it might go against the Church/Government wishes. Its still much better from the days in the USSR when people had to get Beatles albums on the black market in defiance.

As for what happened there really needs to be some sort of strict international standard going forward to not fly over conflict zones no matter how high up in the sky a plane is.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:27 PM   #83
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What are the odds the Russian army provided them, in an under-the-table sort of way?

It should be fairly easy to figure out where the missile originated from. The US experts were saying yesterday that they were able to confirm a missile was fired because of a heat map, so it follows that the heat map would reveal the origin of firing as well.
Maybe, definitely possible, but I'm not even sure if the rebels have a border with Russia at this time. I've read recent accounts of people fleeing to Russia as refugees and some of them have said there had been a UA army presence at some border checkpoints. With such a large missile system it would be much riskier than say, a truck carrying firearms or whatever, the UA army would have ways of finding out if a missiles system like BUK was crossing the border I'd think.

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So, apparently Malaysia Airlines is flying MH17 along the same route today.
I don't think that's a wise idea.

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I think P--sy Riot and any other Russians who get silenced would agree that a hint of the USSR can be seen, even if obviously not full blown (as it would clearly not fly with people who lived through it). Or their new ban on swearing coming after their ban on positive speech towards homosexuality. I just don't like that a country that has produced some of the world's greatest art and architecture still have all these restrictions for fear it might go against the Church/Government wishes. Its still much better from the days in the USSR when people had to get Beatles albums on the black market in defiance.

As for what happened there really needs to be some sort of strict international standard going forward to not fly over conflict zones no matter how high up in the sky a plane is.
I don't think there's really much worth in debating in how authoritarian 'this' compared to 'that' is, my main point is not in disagreeing with you about the power of the Russian government, but more so to suggest that the Ukrainian government isn't a walk in the park either which is something you won't hear too much about in the mainstream media. Overall, Eastern Europe is conservative on a social level, and I don't think singling out Russia is particularly fair.

Anyway ...
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:37 AM   #84
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The more I think about it and the more I read, it appears that the whole narrative used from the outset has been even a little too convenient, too obvious?

Was Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior behind the Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17? | Global Research

The differences in what various UA officials have said come off as being a bit suspicious, and that there are parts of the Ukrainian government that hide things from each other (which seems plausible given how the government was put together post Maidan).

My head hurts.
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Old 07-19-2014, 12:03 PM   #85
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Old 07-19-2014, 12:14 PM   #86
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Terrible. Just terrible and extremely unfortunate. To see the bodies spread around all those gardens and properties. For some reason, I don't see these incidents diminishing. I just see diplomatic ties severing. And not just between two countries, many more.
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:09 PM   #87
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So...this is mind-boggling.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=24632968
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:41 PM   #88
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Wow, two close calls.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:30 PM   #89
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Some bodies even fell through local homes, bloody hell.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:49 PM   #90
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I thought this was a good read: The Infowar Rages in Moscow

And Vlad, stop peddling the incoherent conspiracy theory that Ukraine shot down the plane. Besides the fact that Ukraine has no motive to do so, the rebels' post-crash behaviour is more than sufficiently incriminating. Nobody complicit in downing a plane would be making access to the crash site so difficult for investigators.
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