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Old 10-17-2008, 11:15 AM   #556
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You should check out political parties around the world to see what's "left" and what's "right."
I don't really care what it is around the world, I'm talking about the U.S. In the U.S., socialism falls under the far left.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:16 AM   #557
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In the U.S., socialism falls under the far left.
Then Bush is far left for nationalizing some banks, ain't he?
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:16 AM   #558
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To think that your own success is not greatly due to the environment and people around you is purely ignorant.
QUOTE]

My success came from the fact that, instead of sitting around waiting for someone else to take care of me, I went to college. I paid for it, my car, my apartment...everything without the help of the government. When i saw my friends buy nice cars after high school, I bought a piece of crap. When i saw my friends going on spring break to the Carribean, I stayed home and worked....now those people I knew with bad priorities are the ones that now have crappy jobs and are sitting around waiting for the government to "give back" to them.

In this country, you have a CHOICE to become the best person you can be. It's called individual liberty. Personal Responsibility. Individual Initiative.


Maybe I should start grading my students using your philosophy...

I've begun to feel that an "A" is too high of a grade for any student to have. I need to "spread some of that knowledge around." I'm gonna start taking my "A" students, and giving a portion of their grade to the lower performing students...they need the help to get to the same level that those "A" students are at. I'm also going to take my "B" students and redistribute their grade to my students with an "F" or a "D." My goal is to have everyone on the same playing field at a "C."

Yeah, I know those "A" students have worked hard, but they better "fucking give back." because we want everyone to have that "C" average.


You missed the whole fucking point of my post.

But you're clearly so enveloped in your own individualistic bubble, I don't expect to make any headway.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:23 AM   #559
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Most intelligent people would ask for more details/clarification before jumping to that conclusion

Most taxpayers would want to see bonuses/salaries slashed of CEOs/Execs of firms being "bailed out", isn't that a redistribution of wealth ? Isn't that Socialism ?

I made a decision recently at work that I would no longer get into discussions with people who need to resort to name calling or personal insults to get their points across.

Why is it not possible for the majority of people on this site to make a statement without some sort of personal insult. For you, you preface your comment with most "intelligent" people. Utoo prefaced their arguement with the "ignorant" comment.

This is the sort of "Change" we need in this country. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a little more civility in our politics?
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:25 AM   #560
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You missed the whole fucking point of my post.

But you're clearly so enveloped in your own individualistic bubble, I don't expect to make any headway.
No I got the point. I just disagree and I explained why. I don't expect to sway you from your believe that government and high taxation will solve all our problems.

The great thing about america is that we can agree to disagree.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:28 AM   #561
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Joe is not what is in question here--it's the fact that Obama slipped up and said what he actually plans on doing--redistributing income of those that have earned that money to those that haven't. Socialism, plain and simple.

Is it impossible to believe that some people disagree with the principle that the government should decide how much income is too much and redistribute that income lower income individuals? I make under $40K per year as a teacher, so I could be selfish and be all for taxing the "rich" being as I won't be making 250K any time soon. I do, however, value personal responsibility, small government, and individual initiative. I know it's hard to believe that here in this liberal wonderland called "free your mind," but some people do still believe that if you work hard and make good choices, you can (and should) be rewarded without the government taking your money and redistributing it.


repeating hard right talking points, dodging the questions asked, and pointing to tired boogeymans of "socialism" while insulting people in the forum probably isn't the best way to make any points.

but, on the subject of points, one about "socialism." there is "socialism" in the US to varying degrees. society cannot exist without a government to support it, as government organizes people and, yes, attempts to work for the greater good. i find it strange that, almost alone in the western world, Americans fear the government in an almost pathological manner.

there's a charming naivete in your post, too, as you don't seem to realize that bad things can happen to good, honest, hardworking people. people do lose their homes. they get fired. their health insurance premiums skyrocket. they get cancer. they are born with disabilities. spouses die. higher education can put you in enormous debt.

all this can and does happen, and it happens frequently. a little over a year ago, i was the victim of a totally freak accident, and i've probably spent over $10K in rehabilitation and hospital bills ... and i'm insured! i used to pay a little under $150 a month for that insurance, but it's now gone up to about $200 a month. that's about a $600 a year increase. and i'm lucky. i make really decent money, and i don't have any kids. what do people do when disaster strikes, and they can't afford it?

so much has been made, even by Obama, of Americans living "beyond their means." well America's "means" have decreased in comparison to the cost of living. food, gas, health car, education -- these costs have skyrocketed compared to personal income, and so we have to put things like food and gas on the credit card. are some people irresponsible? sure. did some fools think that nothing was going to happen to them with 0% down with an ARM? yes. but the reality is that most people do the best that they can with what they have, and still some people are locked into cycles of poverty or near-poverty with little hope of upward mobility. and it's not even so much upward mobility, but the fact that life has gotten drastically more expensive, but they're earning less. we have a rapidly disappearing middle class -- and who is more invested in social stability than the middle classes?

do the rich not owe a greater debt to society? the drive on the roads, use the schools, and, especially, rely upon the police to keep them safe. is not the measure of a society how well we treat our most vulnerable citizens? is there not some obligation on the part of the rich to help the poor in some way? and do the rich not benefit? when unemployment goes up, when people get more desperate, does crime not increase? do our cities not become less safe?

and there are things that only government can do. we can talk about how lovely it is to volunteer at a soup kitchen, but personal charity isn't going to educate millions of kids. personal charity isn't going to run a bus system that's efficient enough to get a poor person who can't afford a car to be able to get to her job in the suburbs on time. personal charity isn't going to address the need of working parents for child care.

there are things only government can do. Republicans have told us for years that the government only screws things up. yes, when bad people are in government. and by "bad" i mean incompetent. government can work. government can be better than we've been trained to think it can be. government is not the answer, but one part of a larger solution.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:28 AM   #562
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Then Bush is far left for nationalizing some banks, ain't he?
Nationalizing banks to avoid a collapse of our financial and economic system that could break the back of our country is different than the redistribution of wealth.

Again, I agree to disagree. I'm not changing your mind, you're not changing mine.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:30 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by ImOuttaControl View Post
I made a decision recently at work that I would no longer get into discussions with people who need to resort to name calling or personal insults to get their points across.

Why is it not possible for the majority of people on this site to make a statement without some sort of personal insult. For you, you preface your comment with most "intelligent" people. Utoo prefaced their arguement with the "ignorant" comment.

This is the sort of "Change" we need in this country. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a little more civility in our politics?
I think the same can be said for people who lazily throw the word socialist or socialism around...
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:31 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by ImOuttaControl View Post
I made a decision recently at work that I would no longer get into discussions with people who need to resort to name calling or personal insults to get their points across.

Why is it not possible for the majority of people on this site to make a statement without some sort of personal insult. For you, you preface your comment with most "intelligent" people. Utoo prefaced their arguement with the "ignorant" comment.

This is the sort of "Change" we need in this country. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a little more civility in our politics?
I made the assumption that "most people" may actually think more deeply about it than jump to an irrational conclusion, i.e, they used intelligence; you jumped to the conclusion that most people are dumbasses who can't think for themselves. Don't preach about civility !

You said "most people":, how the fuck do you know "most people" would jump to that conclusion ?? You were being patronising and condescending, somehow you are able to speak for the majority of people in this country ? How did you get that job ?
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:32 AM   #565
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Nationalizing banks to avoid a collapse of our financial and economic system that could break the back of our country is different than the redistribution of wealth.
I see. So when rich guys benefit from socialism, it's ok with you. But when a rich guy might have to pay more taxes, it's a bad thing.

This, coming from someone making jack for a salary. Talk about "drinking the kool aid."
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:33 AM   #566
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the redistribution of wealth.


what is your definition of this phrase?
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:33 AM   #567
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Nationalizing banks to avoid a collapse of our financial and economic system that could break the back of our country is different than the redistribution of wealth.

Again, I agree to disagree. I'm not changing your mind, you're not changing mine.
I have a real problem with deregulation on the way up, and implementation of socialist-type policies on the way down.

Extol the benefits of "far right" policies when things are going your way, implement the policies of the "far left" when they don't appears to be the order of the day.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:41 AM   #568
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repeating hard right talking points, dodging the questions asked, and pointing to tired boogeymans of "socialism" while insulting people in the forum probably isn't the best way to make any points.

but, on the subject of points, one about "socialism." there is "socialism" in the US to varying degrees. society cannot exist without a government to support it, as government organizes people and, yes, attempts to work for the greater good. i find it strange that, almost alone in the western world, Americans fear the government in an almost pathological manner.

there's a charming naivete in your post, too, as you don't seem to realize that bad things can happen to good, honest, hardworking people. people do lose their homes. they get fired. their health insurance premiums skyrocket. they get cancer. they are born with disabilities. spouses die. higher education can put you in enormous debt.

all this can and does happen, and it happens frequently. a little over a year ago, i was the victim of a totally freak accident, and i've probably spent over $10K in rehabilitation and hospital bills ... and i'm insured! i used to pay a little under $150 a month for that insurance, but it's now gone up to about $200 a month. that's about a $600 a year increase. and i'm lucky. i make really decent money, and i don't have any kids. what do people do when disaster strikes, and they can't afford it?

so much has been made, even by Obama, of Americans living "beyond their means." well America's "means" have decreased in comparison to the cost of living. food, gas, health car, education -- these costs have skyrocketed compared to personal income, and so we have to put things like food and gas on the credit card. are some people irresponsible? sure. did some fools think that nothing was going to happen to them with 0% down with an ARM? yes. but the reality is that most people do the best that they can with what they have, and still some people are locked into cycles of poverty or near-poverty with little hope of upward mobility. and it's not even so much upward mobility, but the fact that life has gotten drastically more expensive, but they're earning less. we have a rapidly disappearing middle class -- and who is more invested in social stability than the middle classes?

do the rich not owe a greater debt to society? the drive on the roads, use the schools, and, especially, rely upon the police to keep them safe. is not the measure of a society how well we treat our most vulnerable citizens? is there not some obligation on the part of the rich to help the poor in some way? and do the rich not benefit? when unemployment goes up, when people get more desperate, does crime not increase? do our cities not become less safe?

and there are things that only government can do. we can talk about how lovely it is to volunteer at a soup kitchen, but personal charity isn't going to educate millions of kids. personal charity isn't going to run a bus system that's efficient enough to get a poor person who can't afford a car to be able to get to her job in the suburbs on time. personal charity isn't going to address the need of working parents for child care.

there are things only government can do. Republicans have told us for years that the government only screws things up. yes, when bad people are in government. and by "bad" i mean incompetent. government can work. government can be better than we've been trained to think it can be. government is not the answer, but one part of a larger solution.

Hard right? LOL. If you only knew. On this site, yes anything right of far left seems far right doesn't it?

Speaking of which, I when is the last time that people on here took the political compass test? I took it recently...I was almost perfectly in the middle...slightly libertarian and slightly to the right...but like I said, almost directly in the middle.

I don't live in a bubble, you know nothing of my life, my hardships, or my experiences, so don't pretend to. I haven't thrown out insults this morning while making my point...it's the lefties who have done that While I wish I had the time to fully describe myself on here, but I do have a busy life and a full time job...my "naivete" as you call it is the fact that while I have the ability to back up my arguements, I dont' have the time. I quite simply cant figure how some people have the time to post as much as they do in here.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:43 AM   #569
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I think the same can be said for people who lazily throw the word socialist or socialism around...

Lazily?

I don't believe in socialism. I believe in a flat tax with no loopholes. If you think that's lazy, then that's your perogative.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:44 AM   #570
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Why is it not possible for the majority of people on this site to make a statement without some sort of personal insult.
Wow, have you really read posts from more than half of all the people on this site? That's impressive -- I salute you, dude!
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