So Whats Wrong With NLOTH

[djerdap]

Pearl Jame has never changed their sound? They have, listen to 10 and then listen to Yield they are worlds apart. If they had never changed their sound their new material would sound like TEN the so called grunge generation. No Code - which is perhaps their most experimental album sounds nowhere near to their earlier stuff. Anyway, why are we talking about Pearl Jam and their fans? They have nothing to do with U2's new album -- which by the way I still cannot get into aside from the song "No Line on the Horizon."

QFT. Records like Ten, No Code and Binaural are miles apart from each other.

About Magnificent lyrics - someone here mentioned a theory that it's Bono talking to his mother. It's the only interpretation I find tolerable, even solid - otherwise, that song was brought down by its cliched lyrics.

 

[super fly guy]

I love it how every single note of edges guitar,or every bang from larrys drum and not to mention bono's lyrics are ripped to shreds for everybodys seperate arguments. You either like the album or you dont,simple as that. Dont slag people for going either way,personaly i love it and its gets better with every listen.

 

[Galeongirl]

You either like the album or you dont,simple as that.

Uh sorry but you're wrong there. There's also this thing as having the album grow on you. People look different at albums the longer they listen to it.

Some of the original lovers will become haters, and vice versa.

It's not all just black and white.

 

[nirniva]

Whoa, whoa, wait. I've been away for maybe a month at most and we've already moved on to the "It's their WORST ALBUM EVAR!!!!!11!!1" part of the cycle?

Oh, Interference, you're so predictable.

 

[johndarling]

Well, I just spend a long time reading what U2 fans thought of the album. I find it funny how some are trying to analyze and come up with theories on what the band did or analyze fans (what kind of U2 fan you fall under). I also find it funny that some folks cannot accept the fact that people do not like the album and overreact.

Anyway, as a U2 fan (and I don't care about where the f*ck I fall into the category of what U2 fan are you!) my opinion on the new album is that it's bland and boring. I've listened to it numerous times and it's not clicking with me. I find the songs boring and rushed. I find the lyrics uninspired, meaningless, and unimaginative.

Like no other U2 album I'm having the hardest time liking any song and I don't understand why. I've given the album numerous tries and read the lyrics and I'm not feeling it. Everyone is talking about Magnificient and I fail to see anything magnificent about this song. Maybe I'm one of those folks that has a different album that the rest of you? If I am where do I find this great U2 album????

= Me after listening to NLOTH. So to answer the original question about what is wrong with NLOTH - A LOT!! But it mostly lacks "heart!"

Let me remind you folks that is is MY OPINION!

OMFG, TFFU!!!! I completely agree with everything you say!!! Most of all, that it lacks or any kind of passion at all. It doesn't feeeeel like an album they wanted to write, like anything that just burst out of them ready made in an elemental way, like a force of nature kind of thing (unlike Rattle and Hum which I actually quite like, I mean it's crafted sure but you need some crafting). It all feels forced and stiched together, smug and slick and worst of all, calculating. But somehow not calculating enough. It's just not on the money. Even if they do make money it's still not on it if you know what I mean?

But all this hero worship and furore about how it's the greatest thing ever....well it just isn't. Emporer's New Clothes.

 

[Marien]

OMFG, TFFU!!!! I completely agree with everything you say!!! Most of all, that it lacks or any kind of passion at all. It doesn't feeeeel like an album they wanted to write, like anything that just burst out of them ready made in an elemental way, like a force of nature kind of thing (unlike Rattle and Hum which I actually quite like, I mean it's crafted sure but you need some crafting). It all feels forced and stiched together, smug and slick and worst of all, calculating. But somehow not calculating enough. It's just not on the money. Even if they do make money it's still not on it if you know what I mean?

But all this hero worship and furore about how it's the greatest thing ever....well it just isn't. Emporer's New Clothes.

I would like to make you a suggestion: if you don't like this album, just forget about it, you have plenty of U2 albums to listen, what's the problem?

I can't agree with your opinion, I think it's one of their best albums, just up there with TJT and AB, but I didn't like R&H so much, so may be we like different sides of the band, I can admit that you don't like the album, but I find it quite unfair when you say it lacks any kind of passion and that it is calculated, you don't have any base to say that. I don't forget it is your opinion, but it seems you are forgetting it is JUST your opinion.

 

[Mrs. Vedder]

I would like to make you a suggestion: if you don't like this album, just forget about it, you have plenty of U2 albums to listen, what's the problem?

I can't agree with your opinion, I think it's one of their best albums, just up there with TJT and AB, but I didn't like R&H so much, so may be we like different sides of the band, I can admit that you don't like the album, but I find it quite unfair when you say it lacks any kind of passion and that it is calculated, you don't have any base to say that. I don't forget it is your opinion, but it seems you are forgetting it is JUST your opinion.

That's funny because your forgetting that you liking the album and saying that it does not lack passion is also just that ,YOUR OPINION!

 

[believer75]

Pearl Jame has never changed their sound? They have, listen to 10 and then listen to Yield they are worlds apart. If they had never changed their sound their new material would sound like TEN the so called grunge generation. No Code - which is perhaps their most experimental album sounds nowhere near to their earlier stuff. Anyway, why are we talking about Pearl Jam and their fans? They have nothing to do with U2's new album -- which by the way I still cannot get into aside from the song "No Line on the Horizon."

Yeah, and which other Pearljam album does Binaural sound like? I do not think that Pearljam reinvents themselves with every album, but every album does seem to be different. Vs. was much different than Ten. I still hear people say they didn't "get" that album. I think there is some brilliant stuff there and perhaps even better than Ten.

But, getting back to U2, NLOTH is a sound assault. There is an uncertainty in the songs and maybe it is about heartbreak and not

 

[johndarling]

I would like to make you a suggestion: if you don't like this album, just forget about it, you have plenty of U2 albums to listen, what's the problem?

I can't agree with your opinion, I think it's one of their best albums, just up there with TJT and AB, but I didn't like R&H so much, so may be we like different sides of the band, I can admit that you don't like the album, but I find it quite unfair when you say it lacks any kind of passion and that it is calculated, you don't have any base to say that. I don't forget it is yur opinion, but it seems you are forgetting it is JUST your opinion.

DON'T PICK ON ME!!!!!!!!!! If YOU DON'T LIKE MY OPINION IGNORE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[artdirector]

nothing wrong with album. its perfect.

 

[Galeongirl]

DON'T PICK ON ME!!!!!!!!!! If YOU DON'T LIKE MY OPINION IGNORE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :madspit

Dude, take a chill pill. You're right in saying you have your opinion and people shouldn't call you out on it, but geez, there are more subtle ways to say it!

 

[Marien]

That's funny because your forgetting that you liking the album and saying that it does not lack passion is also just that ,YOUR OPINION!

No, I'm not, that's why I say that maybe we like different sides of the band, because it's my opinion, only, JUST my opinion, which is not better than yours (or Johndarling's), but I wouldn't say things like it's calculated or that it lacks passion because these are facts and those facts are stated without any proof, I can understand if you say you don't like this album, you don't feel any passion in it, but saying its's calculated, how do you know? are you a member of the band? where you present at the moment when decisions were taken?

Johndarling, I'm not picking on you, I'm sorry if you don't want me to answer to any of your posts, I'm not saying anything offensive to you and I'm a member of this forum, so I think I can express my opinions as much as you.

 

[artdirector]

The best 5 albums of U2 are.
#1 Acthtung Baby
#2 The Joshua Tree
#3 NLOTH
#4 Unforgettable Fire
#5 Zooropa

 

[johndarling]

No, I'm not, that's why I say that maybe we like different sides of the band, because it's my opinion, only, JUST my opinion, which is not better than yours (or Johndarling's), but I wouldn't say things like it's calculated or that it lacks passion because these are facts and those facts are stated without any proof, I can understand if you say you don't like this album, you don't feel any passion in it, but saying its's calculated, how do you know? are you a member of the band? where you present at the moment when decisions were taken?

Johndarling, I'm not picking on you, I'm sorry if you don't want me to answer to any of your posts, I'm not saying anything offensive to you and I'm a member of this forum, so I think I can express my opinions as much as you.

I'm saying that's how it feels to me. How could I mean anything else? I'm not god and I'm not Bono I've been picked on alot by silly people (tho not in this forum I have to say) therefore I am a little sensitive to it. Let it be understood once and for all: I am extraordinarily PROUD of my opinions, I am RELIEVED that they are just MY opinions and you are telling me I am forgetting something that I am absolutely NOT forgetting. Got it?!

Good . You may reply to my posts.

 

[Marien]

I'm saying that's how it feels to me. How could I mean anything else? I'm not god and I'm not Bono I've been picked on alot by silly people (tho not in this forum I have to say) therefore I am a little sensitive to it. Let it be understood once and for all: I am extraordinarily PROUD of my opinions, I am RELIEVED that they are just MY opinions and you are telling me I am forgetting something that I am absolutely NOT forgetting. Got it?!

Good . You may reply to my posts.

Ok, then, you're proud of your opinions and I'm proud of mine.

I'm not picking on you, I tell you again, I was just trying to answer to your post. You don't like NLOTH and I don't like R&H that much, maybe we like different sides of the same band. I don't pay too much attention to the albums I don't like and I thought you were too serious about NLOTH, that's why I said if you don't like the new one, just forget about it, what's the problem? enjoy the albums you like, I wasn't implying you can't have your opinion, just that it is only music, if you don't enjoy this, enjoy something different.

 

[corcovadosong]

are we saying that all art is relative? because I'm with you when you say everybody has their own opinion. But I believe that "Since U Been Gone" is effing incredible, and I know damn well that it's calculated drivel. My enjoying a song does not equal good.

And more than that, songs can be cliche and derivative and unoriginal. They might sound great, but isn't it important to have a discussion about whether the artist producing them is really giving it their all? I am a big supporter of NLOTH, but i'm not going to tell you that SUC is, on this record, a really creative song. They might have crafted it and honed it for years, but it's not really the most original song - even in an influence sense. It's okay to say, hey, I really really like new foo fighters song (for instance) but it's not particularly original. you might get flamed for it, which might be legitimate, but I think it's a good discussion to have.

 

[BVS]

Pearl Jame has never changed their sound? They have, listen to 10 and then listen to Yield they are worlds apart. If they had never changed their sound their new material would sound like TEN the so called grunge generation. No Code - which is perhaps their most experimental album sounds nowhere near to their earlier stuff. Anyway, why are we talking about Pearl Jam and their fans? They have nothing to do with U2's new album -- which by the way I still cannot get into aside from the song "No Line on the Horizon."

Read what I wrote in CONTEXT. The argument was not that NLOTH didn't have anything new for U2(that poster conceded to that), but that it didn't create new sounds period.

Yes PJ has always evolved but they've never created a sound that has never been heard before.

Context is key people.

 

[BVS]

OMFG, TFFU!!!! I completely agree with everything you say!!! Most of all, that it lacks or any kind of passion at all.

I just think you and I have completely different definitions of "heart".

You used Morissey who I(and most anyone writing about him)find to be very witty, ironic, and cynical to be very honest lyric writer. He's probably the furthest from honest I can think of, but don't get me wrong a great writer.

You also used Alanis, who I find extremely one dimentional and the only palletable album is often questioned as to how much she actually wrote.

 

[Thanksandy]

Uh sorry but you're wrong there. There's also this thing as having the album grow on you. People look different at albums the longer they listen to it.

Some of the original lovers will become haters, and vice versa.

It's not all just black and white.

You are right Galeongirl, people's opinions will change, that is natural. I am not sure why fans that don't like the new album, which is fair enough, come on here criticising various aspects of it and just being negative.

I understand that is a forum and we are just discussing the album, but I don't know what people are going to gain out of slagging off certain members of the band, particular songs, lyrics etc.

Everyone is going to be disappointed about certain parts of the album, it is never going fully satisfy everyone and you won't like it all.

Going on about how the ending of a song could have been different, the production could have been improved or that Edge's solo should have been extended in some songs etc, is a bit pointless really, because now the album is recorded I don't see how this is constructive or is going to change anything.

If fans go through songs or albums trying to deconstruct everything and looking at every single angle of its conception, production and recording, then they will always find some fault, whether it is the lyrics, vocals, instruments, sound mixing, production etc.

Maybe I should be posting in a thread entitled "so whats right with NLOTH" and looking at the positives rather than the negatives of the album.

 

[Thanksandy]

That's funny because your forgetting that you liking the album and saying that it does not lack passion is also just that ,YOUR OPINION!

What I found interesting from one of your posts is that NLOTH is bland and boring. If that is the case, I wonder what you thought of HTDAAB or ATYCLB? If anything, those two albums are a lot more bland and boring, as NLOTH at least had a greater degree of variety and the band is trying to implement new sounds, maybe to a varying degree of success.

Bono's lyrics have been criticised by a lot of people, but it could be argued that the last time he wrote truly great lyrics were on AB. NLOTH is quite brave album in that U2 have tried to experiment and seek new directions, but not everyone is going to like that.

I think Bono was right that after the last 2 albums they needed to go in another direction and the new album is a lot more interesting, exciting and has greater depth to it than HTDAAB or ATYCLB. You might not like everything, but if we are talking about blandess, then NLOTH is certainly not in the same category as those two or anything released by Coldplay (well any chance to slag them off and anything released by U2 will be exciting in comparison, if we are talking about boring and bland).

 

[Mrs. Vedder]

No, I'm not, that's why I say that maybe we like different sides of the band, because it's my opinion, only, JUST my opinion, which is not better than yours (or Johndarling's), but I wouldn't say things like it's calculated or that it lacks passion because these are facts and those facts are stated without any proof, I can understand if you say you don't like this album, you don't feel any passion in it, but saying its's calculated, how do you know? are you a member of the band? where you present at the moment when decisions were taken?

Johndarling, I'm not picking on you, I'm sorry if you don't want me to answer to any of your posts, I'm not saying anything offensive to you and I'm a member of this forum, so I think I can express my opinions as much as you.

Everything mentioned on here are not facts but OPINIONS. Yes, I said it lacks heart etc, TO ME, as I'm the one stating my opinion. I can say the same thing to to you; are you a member of the band? Where you there everyday to know for fact that they put all their passion into it? etc? It all comes down to opinions and not facts unless you are a member of U2.

Read what I wrote in CONTEXT. The argument was not that NLOTH didn't have anything new for U2(that poster conceded to that), but that it didn't create new sounds period.

Yes PJ has always evolved but they've never created a sound that has never been heard before.

Context is key people.

Context? Okay, sorry you confused me. I only replied to your comment on how Pearl Jam has not created a new sound in their albums and songs, etc. That's all I responded to, I didn't even respond to the "CONTEXT" of the whole NLOTH thing. Your opinion on Pearl Jam is fine, I don't agree but that's cool.

What I found interesting from one of your posts is that NLOTH is bland and boring. If that is the case, I wonder what you thought of HTDAAB or ATYCLB? If anything, those two albums are a lot more bland and boring, as NLOTH at least had a greater degree of variety and the band is trying to implement new sounds, maybe to a varying degree of success.

Bono's lyrics have been criticised by a lot of people, but it could be argued that the last time he wrote truly great lyrics were on AB. NLOTH is quite brave album in that U2 have tried to experiment and seek new directions, but not everyone is going to like that.

I think Bono was right that after the last 2 albums they needed to go in another direction and the new album is a lot more interesting, exciting and has greater depth to it than HTDAAB or ATYCLB. You might not like everything, but if we are talking about blandess, then NLOTH is certainly not in the same category as those two or anything released by Coldplay (well any chance to slag them off and anything released by U2 will be exciting in comparison, if we are talking about boring and bland).

Look, I'm not going to analyze everything --I feel some take it a bit too far. I'm just talking as a Fan of U2 and their current album, I find it boring and yes, bland. You stating that it has more depth that HTDAAB and ATYLB is your opinion, I don't agree at all. I like ATYCLB and to me that album is not great but it's a good album. It all boils down to what you like and don't like. I mean coldplay? I don't want to compare U2 to other bands. I just wanted to express what I feel on the album, you don't agree that's fine.

I'm not trying to be difficult folks, I just think we should all express what we think of the album without being told that our opinions or what we like or don't like is not ok because of "insert some deep analyze theory here" etc. You know?

K that's it.

 

[Marien]

Everything mentioned on here are not facts but OPINIONS. Yes, I said it lacks heart etc, TO ME, as I'm the one stating my opinion. I can say the same thing to to you; are you a member of the band? Where you there everyday to know for fact that they put all their passion into it? etc? It all comes down to opinions and not facts unless you are a member of U2.
:

What can I say? Only that I think you haven't read my first post, that I like debating, but I don't like fighting, when I fight I choose better causes than a music album, so it's ok for me now.

 

[U2girl]

Aside of the bad first single choice...I'd like to see Edge move on from picking up bits and pieces of his own style, as he has been doing it these last 3 albums.

 

[Mrs. Vedder]

What can I say? Only that I think you haven't read my first post, that I like debating, but I don't like fighting, when I fight I choose better causes than a music album, so it's ok for me now.

I replied to your comments; you said you wouldn't say it lacks heart because those are facts et et, you told me how do I know? Was I there? Am a member of the band? Of course of not. I was just stating my thoughts. So, I'm just saying that no one knows for sure how much effort or "heart" they put into this album unless you were there. To me however, it seems like it lacks heart.

Do I have to go back and read all your posts on this thread to get you? Well, what can I say? I guess aslong as you love this album you cannot state how you feel because it someway you are wrong and we should debate your thoughts.

Oh forget it. Just forget I ever stated my opinion!! *runs*

 

[BVS]

Mrs. Vedder

 

[johndarling]

Ok, then, you're proud of your opinions and I'm proud of mine.

I'm not picking on you, I tell you again, I was just trying to answer to your post. You don't like NLOTH and I don't like R&H that much, maybe we like different sides of the same band. I don't pay too much attention to the albums I don't like and I thought you were too serious about NLOTH, that's why I said if you don't like the new one, just forget about it, what's the problem? enjoy the albums you like, I wasn't implying you can't have your opinion, just that it is only music, if you don't enjoy this, enjoy something different.

This thread is about NLOTH and it just came out and I get to be 'too serious' (I probably call it something else) if I wanna be.

I just think you and I have completely different definitions of "heart".

You used Morissey who I(and most anyone writing about him)find to be very witty, ironic, and cynical to be very honest lyric writer. He's probably the furthest from honest I can think of, but don't get me wrong a great writer.

You also used Alanis, who I find extremely one dimentional and the only palletable album is often questioned as to how much she actually wrote.

Different definitions of 'heart'. Different definitions of 'honesty' and definately different definitions of 'one-dimensional'.

Saying that 'it is often questioned how much she wrote' isn't an argument.

I replied to your comments; you said you wouldn't say it lacks heart because those are facts et et, you told me how do I know? Was I there? Am a member of the band? Of course of not. I was just stating my thoughts. So, I'm just saying that no one knows for sure how much effort or "heart" they put into this album unless you were there. To me however, it seems like it lacks heart.

Do I have to go back and read all your posts on this thread to get you? Well, what can I say? I guess aslong as you love this album you cannot state how you feel because it someway you are wrong and we should debate your thoughts.

Oh forget it. Just forget I ever stated my opinion!! *runs*

I completely agree with Mrs Vedder, apart from her rotten taste in men that is. It seems as if some people here don't know much about debating though they claim to like it. If someone says this is HOW I FEEL about something you don't come back at them with 'PROVE IT, WERE YOU THERE!???!!!' If you feel the need to reply it is probably because you feel something completely different about it, that it is chock full of , that it is so passionate it makes your head spin, that it makes you laugh, cry, it makes you angry whatever . SO SAY SO! That's one of the things about 'art', it is one thing to feel something, it is another thing to express those feelings and something else entirely when your audience empathises and feels the same way you do.

Oh and Mrs Vedder, please don't run away. I am all agog to hear your opinions!

 

[BVS]

Saying that 'it is often questioned how much she wrote' isn't an argument.

Why not? There WAS a question as to how much writing she actually did on her first albums... I'm not saying there's any truth to it, but there has been question and even Glen Ballard hinted at the fact that he gave much more lyrical direction than believed.


I just don't know how anyone question's Bono honesty given the examples you give. You haven't exactly articulated your point well.

 

[65980]

I'm not really into the new album. It's good-ish, but at this point it's going to take a lot to excite me with a new U2 release. Since I've been following them since the late 80s, I've seen them go through peak of popularity, to re-invention, to fall-out in contemporary relevance, to re-emergence in pop culture, and now the new album. I don't hold it against them that I find NLOTH a bit boring and badly written, since it's remarkably exceptional that they've stayed popular and active for this long. (I really consider everything after Pop to be a bonus and to be irrelevant to their legacy, whether I like it or not.) I think what's finally happening now is that U2 has ceased to be about new music -- as, to some extent, have all older artists who've been going for 20 or more years -- and become more about the tour and the "event". As much as they try to fight against that trend, they also encourage it by making everything they do on the biggest, grandest scale possible. Inevitably this makes people more excited about the tour than the new album, even if the album is a corker (which I don't think this one is). And the older they get, the harder it is to generate excitement. I can't see how this album will win over many new fans, so they're really preaching to the converted at this point in the game. That's fine, but if it's so, I don't think they need to go such huge endeavours and monstrously big tours, etc. Personally, I would like them, at this point, to concentrate more on new music and craft and less on being BIG, as I don't think they're going to get anywhere further in that direction. I mean, they are nearly 50 years old.

But anyway, the new album is good, as always, but for me it's overproduced and not melodic enough, and has some oversinging. I quite like "Magnificent", "Unknown Caller", and "White As Snow", but none of them are as good as the three best songs on the two preceding albums, let alone the 80s/early 90s stuff.

 

[65980]

NLOTH - Probably the best song with the freshest sounds (should have been the 1st single)
Magnificent - Classic U2 sound. Great song, but seems predictable--and a horrible title and lyric. I connect more to the sound than the lyrics--and naming a song "Magnificent" seems silly.
MOS - Great atmosphere, good lyrics. Starts so powerfully...GOES NOWHERE! Where's the crescendo!?!??!?!? It's as if they wrote SYCMIYO without "Can You Hear me when I sing..your the reason I sing..." Reminds me of "So Cruel."
UC - Really like it a lot--guitar is a bit of a rip from Walk On though
Crazy - The worst song they've ever done--Britney lyrics--syrupy BS music. Please do not compare to ATYCLB or HTDAAB songs--this one just sucks.
Boots - Sexy Boots, the worst lyric ever in a U2 song--like the music--seems a bit calculated--loved the song at first--bit of a yawner now--song melts on contact--not lasting
SUC - SUCKS. This isn't Zeppelin--it's U2 doing LAME tired Rolling Stones/Bob Seger crap.
Fez/BB - Love BB, but the song seems unfinished, and the Fez BS at the beginning is meaningless, stupid overproduction. BB has such a great sound though, but it's not a GREAT song. Would love to have seen this fleshed out.
White As Snow - I LOVE LANOIS. This song seems to belong on a Lanois record--not U2. Nice, but boring b-sidey soundtrack material.
Breathe - Should be a single, IMO. Love it. Unlike Crazy and SUC, it is catchy BIG U2 done right.
Cedars - Love it--atmospheric--haunting. I see it as the third in a trilogy: Wanderer; Wake Up Dead Man; Cedars.

This is the 1st U2 record I have not LOVED--It just doesn't inspire me--especially in the lyrics--they seem meaningless and detached for the most part with pop culture references scotch taped together. I also do not like how the intros are so overdone to create the illusion that they are breaking new ground (and sound), when they really are not other than NLOTH and BB

Ultraviolet353, I've just gone back to read some of your posts here, and I find you and I agree 99% on everything about the new record (and U2 in general). The only difference might be that I'm not even sold on 'Breathe', which i find a poor lyric, but otherwise good (I also liked 'White As Snow' more than you do). But nice points, and I totally concur.

And thank you for raising the issue of the unnecessary intros to the songs. This is why I think the album has too much Brian Eno. At this point, I really want to hear the band instruments, not Eno's ProTools squelches over the top of a song to give the illusion of being "progressive".

 

[johndarling]

Why not? There WAS a question as to how much writing she actually did on her first albums... I'm not saying there's any truth to it, but there has been question and even Glen Ballard hinted at the fact that he gave much more lyrical direction than believed.


I just don't know how anyone question's Bono honesty given the examples you give. You haven't exactly articulated your point well.

Jagged Little Pill was her first album and full of perfect 'formula' pop songs, not quite so exciting but very successful and the lyrics were very good even then. Of course she had help, she was young, it was her first album. She even talked about writing You Oughta Know with, I guess Glen Ballard and saying that they got to a place where she was able to get in touch with some very raw feelings. I don't believe she meant that they were HIS feelings. She then got famous and successful overnight and went off to India, now maybe you can tell me, Oh Knowledgeable One, was that under the direction of her music management, I don't think it was. Then she came back with the next album which she probably also had help with, crafting and editing etc. Does she have to do everything herself to make it count as a proper effort 'cause I don't think she does and that's ok.

As for Morrissey, have you listened to every Morrissey song ever released, it doesn't sound like you have. Because I have. Pretty much.

I'm sorry you don't find me articulate but I really don't feel like saying oh I don't understand this and having you explain it to me with well it could mean this or it could mean that etc and then oooh not really sure I get this either and then you give me your interpretation again and we COULD go through the entire album like that and I we'd have a REALLY nice view of the trees and YOU still wouldn't be seeing the forest, which is me saying the album doesn't have any clear themes, any strong emotions, any cohesion, and I just think they should call it a day instead of milking out the last dregs of whatever 'talent' for want of a better word they still have, because Bono still wants to be in the 'biggest band in the world' and is still getting a buzz off the the crowd ( I can't believe it!). I think he is stuck in a rut.

I don't think Bono is even capable of being honest WITH himself, never mind about himself!