Vertigo = Elevation
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PhoenixGNX
The Fly
Ok, I may get stoned for saying this, but here goes:
I'm trying not to generalize, but 90% of Europeans are Zoo TV fanatics. It's a fact I've pretty much discovered over the last 10+ years. They loved the glitz, high tech, bulb flashing glamour that made those shows. America, on the other hand, has been and always will be in love with The Joshua Tree/War era. I've been trading bootlegs with people all over the world for 10 years and European traders always want all the Zoo TV material where as Americans always want the earnest JT, War, or Elevation.
This may sound like a weak theory to use, but its a fact that the Europeans are in love with big shows full of gagets and innovation. American audiences are about the feeling and passion of a show. Now, remember, this doesn't apply to everyone of course. I know Americans who think Zoo TV is the best thing since sliced bread. All I'm saying is, it's been really obvious to me over the years which continent favors a particular style of U2.
I looove Zoo TV era....but when it comes down to it, one should could care less what the hell the set looks like. All that matters is that Bono's voice is strong, the band are in unison, and the show gives you a cathardic experience you will never forget. You shouldn't let the lights and bulbs blind you from what's really happening on that stage...magic.
I'm trying not to generalize, but 90% of Europeans are Zoo TV fanatics. It's a fact I've pretty much discovered over the last 10+ years. They loved the glitz, high tech, bulb flashing glamour that made those shows. America, on the other hand, has been and always will be in love with The Joshua Tree/War era. I've been trading bootlegs with people all over the world for 10 years and European traders always want all the Zoo TV material where as Americans always want the earnest JT, War, or Elevation.
This may sound like a weak theory to use, but its a fact that the Europeans are in love with big shows full of gagets and innovation. American audiences are about the feeling and passion of a show. Now, remember, this doesn't apply to everyone of course. I know Americans who think Zoo TV is the best thing since sliced bread. All I'm saying is, it's been really obvious to me over the years which continent favors a particular style of U2.
I looove Zoo TV era....but when it comes down to it, one should could care less what the hell the set looks like. All that matters is that Bono's voice is strong, the band are in unison, and the show gives you a cathardic experience you will never forget. You shouldn't let the lights and bulbs blind you from what's really happening on that stage...magic.
Yes Doctorwho we were prepared for one similarity... but not for lots of them. No i haven't seen the show (that's why i want to be very wrong), but i saw pictures and from those i saw exactly poses like elevation tour and the clothes were almost the same of Elevation Tour (at least from the photos, but of course he might have new clothes... or not).
Doctorwho you know very well the technology in the 80's was not the same in the 90's. If you see Delicate Sound Of Thunder from Pink Floyd in 88, you will see a very high-tech concert for the 80's, but if you will see then Pulse in 94... there's a so brutal difference between them in terms of high-tech that just proves Technology shock between the two decades was enormous. This is just a proof why 80's production and 90's production were different.
The adoption of a different sound aproach by U2 can explain also lots of things. A more Electronic aproach makes you think in a more High-Tech production.
And another thing, it was basically Joshua Tree Tour who made them "rich". Before it, they didnt had money to make such a big production.
Please, can you tell me the similarity between a car and a lemon?
The only similarity was the big stage. And ok... we can consider another similarity... the concept. Just like Zoo TV had IRONY written from all over the place and the theme was basically Comunication, in Pop Mart the theme was Consumption.
90's was a decade of lots of changes and attitude. And both Zoo TV, Pop Mart and Elevation Tour were different tours. Now i just was expecting something different again.
Doctorwho you know very well the technology in the 80's was not the same in the 90's. If you see Delicate Sound Of Thunder from Pink Floyd in 88, you will see a very high-tech concert for the 80's, but if you will see then Pulse in 94... there's a so brutal difference between them in terms of high-tech that just proves Technology shock between the two decades was enormous. This is just a proof why 80's production and 90's production were different.
The adoption of a different sound aproach by U2 can explain also lots of things. A more Electronic aproach makes you think in a more High-Tech production.
And another thing, it was basically Joshua Tree Tour who made them "rich". Before it, they didnt had money to make such a big production.
Please, can you tell me the similarity between a car and a lemon?
The only similarity was the big stage. And ok... we can consider another similarity... the concept. Just like Zoo TV had IRONY written from all over the place and the theme was basically Comunication, in Pop Mart the theme was Consumption.
90's was a decade of lots of changes and attitude. And both Zoo TV, Pop Mart and Elevation Tour were different tours. Now i just was expecting something different again.
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Re: Re: Vertigo = Elevation
I have seen Popmart 5 times and all these gig's were pretty much what I had expected when seeing the Las Vegas photo's months earlier! So you cán have an opinion about the show when looking at pictures! Matt McGee posted some fine pictures on his Flickr account and you must really be blind if you don't see the similarities with Elevation!
Again, I am not judging the show as I haven't seen it.. I'm sure it was great... All I'm stating is that the production looks too much like Elevation! The oval is not my problem, as the b-stage wasn't new for Popmart either... The stripped stage.. The screen's for each member above the stage, the (LED) curtains... What the hell IS new in the production?
I do agree with you on your point of all shows in the 80's having the same look... But back then U2 was the new kid on the block and didn't ask the ticket prices as they do today! Ever since they "dreamt it all up again" they have set the standard for rock shows ever since... And therefor I totally disagree on your comment that Popmart was reminiscent of Zoo-TV... Zoo-TV was about the media where Popmart was about consumption/commerce... Not even mentioning the change in stage design's...
All in all U2 had dramatic stage changes ever since they ended Lovetown... Ever since they are known as the Greatest Show On Earth, and really don't want to repeat themselves!
So what the hell are they doing now! Judging from the pictures I've seen there are no big changes so what are Willie Williams and U2 thinking!
See my point is, why can't anyone understand my point! I'm not asking you to agree with me, because I don't agree with you... But I do understand your point!
I don't agree with you're comment regarding only people who wen't to the show last night being able to really judge the new show! We all have eyes here, and the pictures don't lie!doctorwho said:
Welcome to the forum.
And hey - thanks for making your first post a complaint.
Now that my bitching is done...
I'm not sure why everyone is so stunned here. For months now there's been discussion that instead of a heart ramp stage, it'll be more of an oval. And indeed, that's what it is - yet everyone now seems surprised! Weren't you all prepared for that ONE similarity? It could be a triangle, a circle, a diamond, or whatever, this aspect would naturally bring about similarities to the heart from the last tour. This shouldn't have surprised anyone.
Now that this has been said - have you actually SEEN the show? Have you seen the lights? Have you seen the clothes? Have you heard the setlist? The only people who can talk about this are those who were at last night's show (and if you went to the rehearsal, good for you, but a rehearsal is just that - it's not the actual show). Until you see the show, you don't really know all the similarities.
Lastly, almost all the tours in the 80's were exactly the same. The backdrop might be different. Instead of having a face of the boy on the "War" album, it might be an image of a Joshua tree. But other than that, the stage design was the same. What changed was the appearance of the band (and even then, there were similarities - Bono probably changed the most) and, more importantly, the song list.
In the 90's, PopMart was even reminiscent of ZOO TV. For example, both tours had tons of props - instead of cars, there was a lemon. Instead of many TV's, there was one GIANT TV.
To me, the biggest differences in the tours were from the 80's tours to ZOO TV and from PopMart to Elevation. So in all their years of touring, U2 really has had dramatic stage changes only twice. Hence, your complaint seems rather unfounded.
I have seen Popmart 5 times and all these gig's were pretty much what I had expected when seeing the Las Vegas photo's months earlier! So you cán have an opinion about the show when looking at pictures! Matt McGee posted some fine pictures on his Flickr account and you must really be blind if you don't see the similarities with Elevation!
Again, I am not judging the show as I haven't seen it.. I'm sure it was great... All I'm stating is that the production looks too much like Elevation! The oval is not my problem, as the b-stage wasn't new for Popmart either... The stripped stage.. The screen's for each member above the stage, the (LED) curtains... What the hell IS new in the production?
I do agree with you on your point of all shows in the 80's having the same look... But back then U2 was the new kid on the block and didn't ask the ticket prices as they do today! Ever since they "dreamt it all up again" they have set the standard for rock shows ever since... And therefor I totally disagree on your comment that Popmart was reminiscent of Zoo-TV... Zoo-TV was about the media where Popmart was about consumption/commerce... Not even mentioning the change in stage design's...
All in all U2 had dramatic stage changes ever since they ended Lovetown... Ever since they are known as the Greatest Show On Earth, and really don't want to repeat themselves!
So what the hell are they doing now! Judging from the pictures I've seen there are no big changes so what are Willie Williams and U2 thinking!
See my point is, why can't anyone understand my point! I'm not asking you to agree with me, because I don't agree with you... But I do understand your point!
PhoenixGNX said:
No Phoenix. I think what you said is not false... but it's not completely truth either! I just don't agree with your last sentence.
I think we have a different mentality than Americans. But that is what makes the world so heterogeneous.
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All I can do is smile when I read a post like this! See I'm from Holland and U2 has had it's great breakthrough outside the UK in this little country... U2 themselves seem to love Holland right back, why else do 3 stadium shows in a country only having 15.000.000 inhabitants... I am a very big fan of the very early stuff from Boy/October and have seen U2 8 times now throughout 5 tours...PhoenixGNX said:
Now for me beging a fan of the the glitz, high tech, bulb flashing glamour as you call it... All of that comes second place my friend... What I am trying to tell you guys all throughout this thread is that music comes first!... But I'm sorry to break it to you, but U2 is not the same band as they were in the Joshua Tree pediod anymore! You see, I have seen the classic Joshua Tree gig in Rotterdam and it kicks ass! U2 set the standards and ticketprices this high themselves. And we don't demand a big production, just innovation! So think I can speak for us Europeans here that you are full of shit!
You're saying that Americans love the feeling and passion of a show? Let me tell you this; A good show is about the interaction with the audience! So the feeling and passion of a show comes from both sides! U2 reacts to the crow and visa versa! In Europe all shows are GA... Zooropa, Popmart... Stadium's with 80.000 capacity crowds are all GA on the field! This truely pushes the passion and feeling of a show you see! Last tour when they played Sunday Bloody Sunday in Cologne, the whole heart went absolutely apeshit! And don't tell me that it's the same in the US cause it's not! If you've seen the Boston show and the Slane show you know what I mean!
The other thing is that Zooropa was só much different than the Outside Broadcast tour! I have some DVD's of both shows, but guess which I play most... Zooropa was truely something special, and this didn't have much to do with the big screens or the glitz, high tech, bulb flashing glamour
It really is a shame that you think this way of the European fans, as you are simply wrong
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PhoenixGNX
The Fly
Neilz said:
All I can do is smile when I read a post like this! See I'm from Holland and U2 has had it's great breakthrough outside the UK in this little country... U2 themselves seem to love Holland right back, why else do 3 stadium shows in a country only having 15.000.000 inhabitants... I am a very big fan of the very early stuff from Boy/October and have seen U2 8 times now throughout 5 tours...
Now for me beging a fan of the the glitz, high tech, bulb flashing glamour as you call it... All of that comes second place my friend... What I am trying to tell you guys all throughout this thread is that music comes first!... But I'm sorry to break it to you, but U2 is not the same band as they were in the Joshua Tree pediod anymore! You see, I have seen the classic Joshua Tree gig in Rotterdam and it kicks ass! U2 set the standards and ticketprices this high themselves. And we don't demand a big production, just innovation! So think I can speak for us Europeans here that you are full of shit!
You're saying that Americans love the feeling and passion of a show? Let me tell you this; A good show is about the interaction with the audience! So the feeling and passion of a show comes from both sides! U2 reacts to the crow and visa versa! In Europe all shows are GA... Zooropa, Popmart... Stadium's with 80.000 capacity crowds are all GA on the field! This truely pushes the passion and feeling of a show you see! Last tour when they played Sunday Bloody Sunday in Cologne, the whole heart went absolutely apeshit! And don't tell me that it's the same in the US cause it's not! If you've seen the Boston show and the Slane show you know what I mean!
The other thing is that Zooropa was só much different than the Outside Broadcast tour! I have some DVD's of both shows, but guess which I play most... Zooropa was truely something special, and this didn't have much to do with the big screens or the glitz, high tech, bulb flashing glamour
It really is a shame that you think this way of the European fans, as you are simply wrong
Ok, your turning this into a pissing contest rather than a critically thought out conversation. You've seen 8 shows 5 tours...great..I've seen 21 shows on 6 tours and 3 continents..big deal. I know U2 and Holland have a special relationship going back to 1980. There's no need to take such defense.
I know U2 is not the same band they were in 1987 and so on. You failed to read that I wasnt "GENERALIZING" Europeans. I simply stated that most of the Europeans I've come across (and there's been tons) in my life prefer the Zoo TV type era over JT type era. Its NOT what I THINK, its what I've encountered over the years. Therefore, IM NOT FULL OF SHIT. And it doesnt mean Europeans dont have PASSION...if thats what you thought than you missed my whole point of contrast.
As for "feeling and passion". You plucking out one show that you've seen on DVD hardly dictates what you think American audiences are like. Do I think European audiences are more boisterious? DUH, of course! But, just like you were at Rotterdam '87, I was at San Jose 2001 in which Bono was quoted as having the best show in his entire career. The audience was deafening. But, once again, pissing contest. Who cares. Sunday Bloody Sunday more intense in Ireland than than the U.S.??? Noooo, really...I wonder why.
Fact is, I cant believe your going to let "stage innovation" disappoint you. If stage and tech is your thing, than hey, sorry if the stage sucks. I simply could care less what surrounds the band. And I'm sorry U2 and Willie Williams let you down.
I agree when you say Europeans have a different mentality than the Americans. Absolutely true.
But we still have passion, like you do. But it seems we deal with inovation and technology like you don't do. It's obvious America were always a country of Blues and Rock and you guys prefer more raw concerts and stages. But i don't criticize you from liking it that way. So please don't criticize people that like big stages and great productions.
And yes, the stage disapointed me. I didnt like Elevation Tour. So i wanted a change. But it seems everything is still the same.
But we still have passion, like you do. But it seems we deal with inovation and technology like you don't do. It's obvious America were always a country of Blues and Rock and you guys prefer more raw concerts and stages. But i don't criticize you from liking it that way. So please don't criticize people that like big stages and great productions.
And yes, the stage disapointed me. I didnt like Elevation Tour. So i wanted a change. But it seems everything is still the same.
If you'de really want a thought out conversation, you could have made your point in a little more subtle way for starters! You said you weren't trying to generalize, but infact you were! You had this coming really, saying European U2 fans are glitz, high tech, bulb flashing glamour loving Zoo-TV fans!PhoenixGNX said:
Anyways, you coming across tons of Europeans en thereby concluding that we love bulb flashing glamour and you the feeling and passion is just bull&*... I live in Europe and know for Dutch fans anyway, that the glitter and glamour (as you call it) is not important at all! Of course Zooropa was amazing, but that was because Zooropa was very special by itself! This had nothing to do with the big screens!
I may however have an explanation for you're thoughts that European's love the big shows more... And that's because U2 play more shows for less people in Europe... Holland alone gets 3 shows per tour where we only have 15.000.000 inhabitant... This means that in Europe a larger number of 'non-U2-fans' get to see U2 than in America... And this again means that these people may indeed come for the spectacle... But this says nothing bout the true European U2 fans!
I would like to make clear to you that the reason that U2 does arena's in the US and stadium's in Europe has nothing to do with what we are arguing about! The reason is that U2 doesn't like to play stadium's in the states because GA is not allowed in these big venues! In Europe, Australia and all over the world really, this is the common thing and stadium shows are a very different thing here then in the states... This might just be the reason that you, or the American's in general don't feel so much with Zoo-TV or Popmart... The experience in GA would maybe change your mind... Anyways tháts the reason, and not because America wan't feeling and Europe wan't glitter!
Oh, and you mentioned that Bono said he played his best gig at the one you attended? Bono says a lot of things during gigs... In Cologne that year during the Elevation tour he said that the Europeans were so much louder than the American audience... I won't say Bono is right about this, because Bono says a lot of things to kiss ass during gigs... My conclusion comes from viewing multiple U2 DVD's from all over the world, and my conclusion is that the American's are rather passive during the shows... Take it or leave it...
Last up; I'm only disappointed in the production! And it seems to be that am not the only one! A guy from LA who actually has been to the San Diego show has the same complaint's as I have! The producion is not as innovative as we are used to from U2 (and Willie)... But again; this doesn't mean that I will be disappointed in the shows, the band, the music and the experience! Don't get these thing mixed up! The stageset doesn't deterime wether a show is any good! Only U2 said themselves that they don't want to repeat themselves... But from what I've seen sofar, that is exactly what they seem to be doing...
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PhoenixGNX
The Fly
Neilz said:
This could go back and fourth forever. Again, I never said Europe didnt have passion. But, your not listening. IMO, any fan of U2 has passion. As for the stage, if there was no oval it wouldnt be a reminder of Elevation. And I never said you were the only one who had complaints. Obviously I know the stage doesnt dictate a good show. Thats the basis for my arguement. U2 repeated themselves...25 years and they finally hit a wall. Sue them. And for the last time, I wasnt attacking YOU! I was referring to the people ive met in Europe while attending U2 shows and what their opinion was! So, I'm letting it go. As for the San Jose gig I was at :
"Elevation Tour Diary Entry on U2.com by U2 Sound Engineer Willie Williams
Show day: San Jose - Arena 2nd night
Friday April 20th, 2001
As the wild grey monsoon ripped through the Bay Area, we headed back down to San Jose in the rush hour traffic. Its so quaint they still call it rush "hour" even though the traffic snarl runs pretty much continuously from 6am till midnight.
Its hard to know what to say about tonight's show, other than that it was one of the great transcendental experiences. We changed the set list, including "Stay" for the first time on this tour and "Kite" for the first time ever, both of which were spectacularly successful. The whole night just flowed and it was all we could do to hang on. Afterwards Bono seriously claimed it was the best show of his entire career and much as we all know that Bono is not generally a man prone to understatement, I have never heard him say anything like that before. He told me it was the happiest he'd ever felt on stage. I was pretty damn happy too, being a home town gig and all (and Bono thanked me from the stage tonight, which was major Brownie points).
What makes a show like tonight so great? Its hard to say, other than that the Eagle had landed, the Force was with us, Elvis was in the building.... The show in Atlanta was the first time we really sparked the fusion on this tour but what's really odd is that practically every show since then has reached that same level of emotional/spiritual intensity. Something very tangible seems to be happening during these shows and its happening on a regular basis. Something "other", something greater than the sum of the parts arrives, creating some communal spirit, some energy feedback vortex, alpha rhythms on speed - I don't know what it is, but we've been whipping it up in shed-fulls. Last night's show was certainly on a par with anything else on the tour so far, but tonight's show just eclipsed it... we were so high. Bono has long said that U2 shows are "drugs without drugs" - but if Zoo & Pop were LSD I think this tour must be Ecstasy. And I'm not coming down."
This is also stated in PJ's book as well. I just thought it was pretty cool.
Sken
Refugee
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2001
- Messages
- 1,042
I know exactly what Nielz is trying to say. He is going to love the show because its U2, and all their concerts are awesome. I just think they were trying to meld Popmart and Elevation together in the Vertigo set design.
Problem is, if they were going to make it visual, make it visual. The beads look like a poor mans attempt to simulate the popmart screen. You cant even read what they are trying to say.
Now before you complain. This is gonna be a kickass concert, its just an unispiring stage layout thats all. Check the links for what I am talking about.
Oh guys and please stop this Euro Vs US argument. We all know Aussies do it better
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/5...9B8550AEAEDDC3F99056B1EF832DB621B2AC3A62513D3
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/5...9B8550AEAEDDC8DB1E5477A9725D1621B2AC3A62513D3
Sken
Problem is, if they were going to make it visual, make it visual. The beads look like a poor mans attempt to simulate the popmart screen. You cant even read what they are trying to say.
Now before you complain. This is gonna be a kickass concert, its just an unispiring stage layout thats all. Check the links for what I am talking about.
Oh guys and please stop this Euro Vs US argument. We all know Aussies do it better
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/5...9B8550AEAEDDC3F99056B1EF832DB621B2AC3A62513D3
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/5...9B8550AEAEDDC8DB1E5477A9725D1621B2AC3A62513D3
Sken
Ok, then it's the end of the discussion... Although a shame that you didn't react to my point in difference in stadium shows in Europe and the States...PhoenixGNX said:
But my point still stands... Also without the oval the Vertigo show has Elevation written al over it from what I've seen so far... And you're saying it right with 25 years and they finally hit a wall
Let's leave it with that..
djerdap
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2004
- Messages
- 7,662
It is a tragedy that we have U2 fans who complain that the band is wearing the same CLOTHES as the previous tours.
A tragedy, I tell you.
Especially since we have a setlist with The Electric Co., An Cat Dubh, Zoo Station, The Fly, Running To Stand Still and 40 in it.
A tragedy, I tell you.
Especially since we have a setlist with The Electric Co., An Cat Dubh, Zoo Station, The Fly, Running To Stand Still and 40 in it.
Palace_Hero
Refugee, Note: Troll-like
I thought Willie was from Leeds, England? 
PhoenixGNX
The Fly
Oh guys and please stop this Euro Vs US argument. We all know Aussies do it better
Sken [/B][/QUOTE]
Sken [/B][/QUOTE]
PhoenixGNX
The Fly
djerdap said:
My point exactly.
Don't over react please! It's just a discussion! Come on!djerdap said:
My favorite U2 albums áre Boy and October so musically I it couldn't be better! Zoo Station and the original rendition of Running To Stand Still and 40 is awesome aswell...
Only we are paying a lot of money for tickets and besides ears we also have eyes! Clothes are not important for me, the stage is! Not as important as the music of course, but worth mentioning for sure!
rica
The Fly
" Don't you wish your could go back to 1982 man? " It's 2005 and U2 is on tour to support Vertigo. Enjoy the present or sit at home and listen to the prior tours you liked so much
Vote For Pedro!
Vote For Pedro!
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I give this thread 
and a 
and a PhoenixGNX
The Fly
rica said:
rica
The Fly
Quote from Napoleon Dynamite - Squire reminds me of the Uncle who wanted to back in time to 1982
PhoenixGNX
The Fly
rica said:
Wasn't referring to the quote. I knew where it was from. However, there's nothing at all wrong with wanting to hear tunes they havent played in 10-20 years.
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